All right. Here we go.
Nathan Artt, thanks for joining Jason and me, we want to welcome you to the podcast today.
Yeah, thank you, guys. I’m looking forward to being on.
Hey, so we just met today. We have already had a half-hour conversation about some really, really awesome stuff. And some of that, I’m sure a lot of it is going to come up into this recording, into the conversation that we’re having now. But before we get into the meat and the heart of what we want to chat about today, why don’t you share with our audience a little bit about your story, your faith story, your journey into ministry, and a little bit about what you do today?
Yeah, sure. So just a very long story short, of course, commercial real estate development, private equity. But more importantly, I was the guy that absolutely swore I would never go to church, step foot inside of a church, I was way too smart for that, at least I thought, but I just was not a church person. But ironically, my mentor, who is a Jesus follower, gave me a DVD series from Andy Stanley that I found fascinating, he did not ask me for money, and he did not seem too crazy. But it was very engaging, and so from that, I’m like, all right, this is cool. And then the next step was I met some guys from Buckhead Church and actually joined a small group, I didn’t realize that was a technical term at the time. But became a Christian, actually, before I ever stepped foot inside of a church, and that’s why I just love this conversation.
And then two or three years into that journey, I was trying to figure out what life would look like with this faith, and I was fortunate to get connected to someone at North Point through a small group, who asked me, he was over the strategic partner team. And he said, man, you know, we have all these churches around the country making real estate and finance decisions, would you mind just taking a look under the hood and letting us know what you think? And I was exposed to the world of church real estate and church finance, which was very different from the world that I came from. And just, yeah, just started working with churches, helping them better understand how to create financial models and multi-site models that actually drive real estate decisions versus the other way around. So nine years later, we’ve funded and managed about a billion dollars worth of those projects, and but a couple of years ago, it was really fortunate to work with a lot of awesome executive pastors. And just another long story short, I was asked to put together an event for XP’s, and that event filled up, and it attracted some amazing business leaders. And here we are two years later, hosting events and leader groups around the country, you know, connecting leaders to each other and to the best thought leaders that we can find in ministry and business. And so those are the things I do.
Oh, wow. Ok, so, the last couple of years, it’s turned everything upside down. But even before that, we were talking about E-commerce, I mean, the difference between a physical and an online experience with retail, but talk to me about where is the church headed in this space? You talk to a lot of churches, what do you think is going to happen?
Well, I think there’s a lot of conversation, I’m excited because we get to just see and be a part of conversations. And you know, the first thing I would say is this, I think the thing we’re learning the most about digital is that it in itself is not a strategy, it is a tool that drives strategy. And what Mike Todd and Transformation is able to do through their platform is really tailored towards the strength of the organization versus a 12Stone, or an LCBC, or a Chase Oaks, who is also using digital, but to accomplish something that’s more core to who they are. So I think the answer lies in what is unique about your organization, and how you’re introducing people to the gospel in your community.
But that comment though, you know, I became a Christian in a church who says, hey, we want to be a church that unchurched people want to attend. And I think how we define those last two words, to attend, will have everything to do with how successful we are in reaching people in the next 5 to 10 years. What does that mean to engage with us? Do we say we want you to belong before you believe, as long as you come to our building to do it? And what I’m seeing is that this invitation, very similar to what happened with the Gutenberg press, very similar to what happened with Acts 2 and the original church, is we are seeing the gospel moving outside of buildings and amongst this movement of people being activated by the Holy Spirit and it’s a beautiful thing to watch. It’s watching the church also get comfortable with separating the why we exist with how we exist, which has been somewhat the same, is that going to church on Sunday is being a Christian, and we’re seeing that being decoupled at the moment.
Yeah, you said something earlier before we hit the record button, and it was around the idea that when you invite your neighbor to church, it’s not necessarily you’re inviting them to church. You listen to what’s going on, and you can invite them to something that’s relevant to what they’re looking for, and making those connections. And you know, what we do at Missional Marketing a lot is trying to make that match. If you’re searching for something in Google-specific, we want to give you something specific that answers that question. Right? And so when you think about how retail has, like you had mentioned earlier, if you search for something, everybody knows this, right, we’re not saying anything that people don’t know, if you search for something online on Amazon, you’re going to start seeing a whole lot of things that relate to what you searched for. How can the church learn from that, and react to it, and get better at engaging with people? What are your thoughts on it?
Well, I thought we had 30 minutes. But here’s the thing I would ask for you, the tension that I would encourage you to struggle with, is the difference between relevance and convenience. Convenience is taking something and making it more accessible, relevance is creating an experience that someone is able to get what they’re looking for at the time they need it most. That’s the difference between convenience and relevance, and that is what Target and Home Depot and other retailers who, by the way, went through the same shift that we are going through now. Why are our stores empty? What are we going to do about it? Where are our customers? And those retailers, I mean, I mentioned to you, six years ago, Target was classified as a distressed stock. They were looking at the threat of closing hundreds of stores across the country, yet six years later, they’re the fifth largest retailer in the United States, and they’re opening 500 stores, right? And the difference was, we could use the digital platform to create convenience, but that doesn’t make us relevant. So how do we create relevance? And to that point, the invitation is when…We had a chance to interview the CEO of Home Depot on this, and he made this comparison, when we first started out, our version of digital was to take the Sunday morning circular and put it online. All right, so think about the circular, if you remember those, you know, the company tries to figure out what it is you might be looking for, so I’m going to show you, here’s our refrigerators, here’s our sod, here’s our tools. And you open that and you go, dang it, I was looking for chainsaws, right? So that’s not a digital experience, that’s taking a physical experience and putting it online, and that is what the reaction is mostly been for the church.
But a digital experience is different, a digital experience is based on relevance, and it’s helping you as the customer, find what you’re looking for when you need it most. And so if I’m inviting my neighbors, so this is a true story, I live in a very post-church area of Atlanta, and there is a lesbian couple across the street, there is a dude down the street who I have had a lot of conversations with about mental health and anxiety, there’s an atheist guy that loves to have conversations about this stuff, you know, and I’m constantly in dialog. And let me tell you why I would never invite any of those people to a church building, it’s because if I did all at once, what are the actual chances that the content that we deliver to them that day, or the experience that we deliver to them that day, has any relevance to anything that they care about. It’s no different than the online circular, right? So instead, I’m not inviting them to a church building, I’m saying, hey, I really enjoyed the conversation I had with you, and hey, here’s a series from Andy Stanley on tough questions around faith. Or here’s a conversation that Mike Todd just have with Natalie about how he and his wife are having to deal with quarantine and being locked in a house together with all their kids, and how difficult that must be for you, guy, who’s dealing with anxiety? Right? But it’s about delivering something that’s relevant to them, not hoping that the experience will overshadow the lack of relevance.
Wow. Well, data doesn’t, you know, I always point to data every time we get on a call with one of our churches that we get to partner with, the data doesn’t lie. And you sit there and you talk about all this traffic that got to their website, only to find their bounce rate really high and engagement really low. And they’re going, why is that, Jason? Well, it’s relevant, it’s what they’re looking for, what they Googled, and they landed on your website because you’re advertising on it, but you’re pointing them to your home page instead of pointing them to a page that actually connects the dots for them, gives them content for them to absorb and learn from, and now you’re building some relationships. That is what the model of Target and Home Depot are doing, right, it’s a product, in a sense, it’s just a different kind of product.
Well, and we call this the death of the funnel. Ok, so here’s another big thought, why is attendance so important to us? In my opinion, it’s because, for years and years and years, attendance has been a predictive analytic. If I tell a lead pastor how many people are in the room, we can figure out giving, serving, and groups, we can figure out our assimilation process because attendance drives engagement. We’re finding ourselves in a different model now where engagement is actually driving attendance, and attendance has become the lagging indicator, not the leading indicator. And that is a very big thought for us to begin to process because everything’s based on attendance for that very reason. And one of the big thoughts, one of the big, big thoughts, and Target very openly talked about this, and it’s something I hope the listeners can struggle through in this tension, they said in order for us to be relevant to our customers. We have to stop caring when and where they purchase. Meaning, the goal is not to introduce you to a digital experience, to get you to click on this button, to get you to come over here to ultimately get you into a building. And stay with me on this, because this second part of this is insane, the goal is just to maintain relevance with you and provide options to you that no matter where you are and what you’re doing and how you’re experiencing it, that we are a trusted brand that can deliver that to you, whether that’s through Shipt, whether that’s overnight delivery, or whether that’s a convenient shopping experience in the store, it’s about relevance. But in order to do that, in order to truly do that, we internally have to stop caring about when and where our customers purchase. What is interesting about that comment, it’s like, wow, does that mean that we’re just going to be a digital church, and we’re going to sell all of our buildings, and we’re all going to move away and just go to house church? No, actually, the data suggests the opposite happens. Out of the top 10 online retailers in the United States, there are four that also have a physical presence, so Target was mentioned, Home Depot was mentioned, Wal-Mart, who’s been a huge shift to this model, and ironically, Macy’s, which is so weird. But what’s really interesting with those four, is that all four of them are in the top 10 online retailers in the country, but not one of them, not a single one of them sees more than 10 percent of their revenue online. And what happens, what happens is, when you think of an integrated experience versus a hybrid or campus model, when you really think that digital is not just a second expression or a separate expression that it’s an integrated part of our organizational strategy, what you’ll find is that people develop brand trust with you through the digital platform, they immediately desire a tactile experience. And every one of those cases, the journey started digitally and ended being an in-person customer. And I’m actually one of those people, ironically, with Target. Like I was never a big Target shopper, you know I never understood paying more for a red cart, you know, but I get it now, I have two kids, so I get it. And that’s the thing that we have to grapple with is, we have to be OK with people not ultimately ending up where we want them to end up, and asking more questions about where they want to end up.
Yeah, I can imagine that would be pretty scary for lead pastors and XP’s who, you know, that’s just the model, the model has changed. Now, I think it’s changed not just because of COVID, that was a massive thrust to push us in this direction, but it’s just been like this over the last 10 years with this digital shift.
Well, Jason, let me ask you this. Do you feel like COVID changed anything or accelerated a change?
It’s accelerated it. That’s all, in my opinion, that’s all it did.
Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you a hundred percent, this was already happening, it just happened a lot faster.
Uncomfortably faster, and maybe that was God’s plan all along.
Maybe it was.
Nathan, you said something a minute ago that I can’t leave it, I need to kind of camp on it for a minute, and it’s the way that you define the word relevance is very different than I think the way our North American church has defined relevance for the last twenty, twenty-five years, thirty years, maybe now. And let me try to restate what you said, relevance is taking something that’s important to someone and delivering it to them in a time or in a manner in which it’s convenient and helpful for them, right? I mean, I’m kind of summarizing what you said there. You know, if I’m Home Depot and I sell hammers, but I only sell the hammer on this particular day and this particular time, then I’m not really relevant to people who are looking for hammers because I’ve made this product only available in this little window of time. And when we look at the way that the church tends to function, my goodness, my phone is going like crazy, sorry, I should have turned it off. The church would argue, a lot of churches, I think, would argue this, but no matter how much ministry activity we do, no matter how much we’re trying to build a ministry around ways that we can engage people in our community, we still build everything around a 60-minute service, 70-minute service on Sunday, and most of that is around a 30 to 40-minute sermon that’s delivered on Sunday. By and large, this was one of the…when churches had to pivot in 2020 to go online, the one thing that everyone was most concerned with is how can I preach to people via video into their living rooms so they can watch the service? That’s the piece that we felt we had to replace, which just reaffirms that we still consider that 30 to 40 minutes of preaching on Sunday a significant pillar to what we do. But we only deliver that for 30 minutes, 40 minutes on a Sunday, on a specific day, at a specific time, unless we are taking that and then repurposing it and redistributing it through digital means, like the DVD set for the Andy Stanley series that you got, or YouTube, or our website, or what have you. And one of the challenges that I’m having with churches, it’s not a challenge I’m having with churches, but one thing I’m challenging churches to think through is when you’re planning your next sermon series, instead of just thinking about it as being these four weeks in January, or four weeks in February, that we’re going to teach on this particular topic, and put all of your eggs into the basket of how can I get people into the room to hear this for these four weeks. Think about how you can preach and develop content that lives on in perpetuity through digital means going forward. [inaudible].
Yeah, I’ve got one church, in particular, I’m thinking about, last year, preached a series on having a strong faith during times of stress and anxiety. It is one of the most-watched YouTube videos that they have on their entire YouTube channel, and it was preached in July of last year. And for the church, it was a moment in the past that’s already gone, they’ve preached twenty-six or twenty-eight sermons since then, and they’re not even thinking about it at all. But I’m like, yeah, but the people that you’re trying to reach are still finding that video online, and they’re still connecting with the church digitally because they’re still finding that content that’s twenty-six weeks old or a hundred and twenty-six weeks old. So I just, I love what you’re saying there about the timeliness and its relevance to relevance. That was a weird thing to say, but the relevance of timeliness as it relates to relevance.
Yeah, I understand, and we can even unpack that a little bit more. So we had a chance, I said, to interview Frank Blake and he said, you know, the most foundational element of a digital strategy is your search bar. You know, and that’s a deep conversation, but the point of it is, is getting to know people and what they’re looking for, and making…You know so much about the church, by the way, the reason that model is so big about getting people into a building on Sundays is because it worked, it worked, it did. It had its season just like Target, having one hundred and forty thousand square foot stores that was a real day, that happened, and it worked, we’re just not in that time anymore. So, that’s why we stick to it, it’s what we know, and it worked and we want it to work again. Unfortunately, Sears and JC Penney are great examples of what happens when we hold on too tight to those old models, right?
But to your point, so even in that right, so search bar, if we just pick the 5 to 10 things that are going on right now, divorce rates, dealing with marriages in ways that we’ve never had to before, dealing with anxiety, depression, if we were to put things in place that helped inform us what people were looking for when they came to us, right? It would help develop content, not only just to send out, but also to create next steps. So you just mentioned a YouTube video, or click through to the home page, if we have that many people watching this video, what are we doing with that? How are we creating next steps for them? How are we leading them into community, right? If we have that many people watching the video, what’s the invitation? If the invitation is, well, you can come to our building at 9:00 a.m. on Sunday. Ok, but how does that help me if I’m an hour away and I don’t know you? Right? There are so many things that we could be doing with the information that you just mentioned, and learning about our customers, and taking that learning to provide offerings that engage people. And here’s the crazy thing, so many people are threatened by the digital platform because of the fear of what it will do to in-person attendance. And again, the reality is is that all of the data suggests the exact opposite, the more you focus on digital engagement and creating great digital experiences, the more people want to experience you in person.
So have the years of lead and XP’s, right, so you’re saying this to them, are they freaking out or are they responding? If so, what churches are responding well to that message?
Oh, you know, man, honestly, I’ve been…Well, there’s a lot of lead pastors retiring right now, and that’s not a knock on them. I’ve said to a lot of people, I couldn’t imagine being a lead pastor the last two years and what they’ve had to deal with beyond the model changing, and beyond Covid, I mean, it’s just been a tough time. No, there’s a lot of receptivity, I think it’s scary for everybody. The thing I’m encouraging all lead and executive pastors is this, is that you know, God’s promise, we have certainty in his promise. He just never gave us certainty in his process, right? And we’re in the middle of this very disruptive process, and I think he’s bringing us back closer to him, back to the roots of evangelism, Crossroads just did a study showing that there are 73 million people in America who would be open to engaging with Christian people and Christian content, they avoided the word church for a reason, but 73 million people who would do both of those things, but not be willing to go to a church building. And there’s a big blue ocean out there, and I think that there are guys who are looking at that going, man, I don’t have the answers, I don’t know how I’m going to do that, but boy, I want to be a part of what God is doing in his church right now, let’s figure it out. And then there’s the, hey, let’s wait until things get back to normal, and, you know, unfortunately, that normal does not exist anymore. Because we’re no longer in COVID season, this is our new reality, this is where we live, this is our world and we’ve got to adjust to it, right?
Yeah, and I feel like every…So there are thousands and thousands and thousands of churches in America, right? Most of them are really small, you know, we have a partnership with our friends at Ninety Five Network, they minister to the 95 percent of the churches that are like itty bitty. Then you got all these, you know, you’ve got bigger and bigger churches. And yet we all are on the same team, we’re all trying to lead people to Jesus. And you look at that and go, how do they adopt this strategy? Because you talk about Target, well, it’s one company with multiple locations, so they can reproduce themselves. So momentum can gain, when they’re doing it right, momentum can gain. It’s like with churches we sometimes, this drives me nuts, churches look at each other and go, that’s the competition. And they have to stop thinking that way and start collectively coming together and figuring out how are we going to bring this country, this world, to Jesus, right?
I have a big comment because we are called to collaboration, not to competition. And I’ll tell you that somebody asked me recently, what was the biggest lesson you learned from Frank Blake? It was this, because this drives him nuts, and now keep in mind, this is the guy, the CEO and Chairman of Home Depot, Delta, Chairman of Delta, Chairman of Procter & Gamble, and Chairman of Macy’s, among other things, he’s a slightly brilliant man, OK? But the thing he said, he goes, Nathan, you would never believe you would not believe me if I told you who was in my living room during my Home Depot days. And he said the problem wasn’t Lowe’s, the problem was that the home improvement sector represented such a small portion of American consumers, and the goal was not to take more business away from Lowe’s, in fact, we want them to be successful because we want to compete over more customers. And so the goal was to get the industry to grow, and I could not do that alone as Home Depot, I had to work with my competitors to make that happen. And I’ll never forget that lesson as long as I live, because we look at America, and we look at the depleting population of Christians and our lack of influence, and we’ve become so much more known for what we’re against than what we’re for, and this idea of competing in a losing game is just stupid. We’ve got to pull together, we’ve got to collaborate, we are on the same team, and if we work together, we’ll actually see God move in this country in ways that will, you know I believe this in all my heart, and I’ve been saying this for two years, I believe that this is the greatest evangelistic opportunity that we will see in our lifetime. You have an increasing level of hopelessness, with a changing model that delivers the greatest message of hope in the history of the world. And if we look at that opportunity together, it’s scary to think of what we could do.
Wow. You know, it’s funny, so I live in the Phoenix area. And my son, so in Phoenix, there are pockets of land and they’re all car dealerships, there’s like 8 or 10 of them, and my younger son goes, why would they do that, dad, aren’t they competing against each other? I said, well, son, the reason why they do that is they want all the people who are wanting to buy cars on their property, then they can compete against each other with the best price, but they want to get all those people to that location so they drive around. And he’s like, interesting. And I immediately went to the church world, I go, you know we’ve got this church here, and there’s a church over there, and a church down the street, and they never talk to each other. What a shame, in a sense, right? Because it’s like we could be partnering together, just like take a lesson from what’s going on, and what you just said there about that experience with Home Depot and Lowe’s, yes, you want more people in that space because now they’re thinking about you.
One hundred percent. One hundred percent. But I think too, I will say this, through Covid, I have seen the level of collaboration increase incredibly. One of the things we do, we do a lot of leader groups, we do a lot of events. And I think a couple of years ago, those people would not always show up to learn and network with other people, and we’re seeing a lot of that right now, and I’m grateful for that because it’s not always been that way. But we’re not going to do this alone, each individual church is not going to find the answer. We are called to the big C Church, there’s one name, not a pastor’s name, there’s one name that’s worth being famous and can carry the burden of that, and his name is Jesus. And I think this next phase, I hope one of the identifying characteristics of the church, is our ability to collaborate around that idea.
So, a lot of the people that listen to this podcast are usually mostly church communications people, they’re staff members in the church at some level, they’re overseeing communications or in communications, and some XP’s and some lead pastors that tune in. What would be your advice to them, or what’s a thought that pops into your head that you’d want to share with them?
Yeah, fall forward right now. I mean, I would say two things, I would say don’t look at this as a program to add. I think this is a great time to sit back and be like, Lord, hey. There’s a really cool story that’s been significant for me about Joshua when he was called into leadership and everyone remembers the bumper sticker verse be strong and courageous, but in that same passage, God tells him to be obedient. And what’s ironic is his first challenge of courage is actually obedience, Joshua lay down everything you know, lay down everything you know, your armies, and the military, and your weapons. And you know me, if you taught me to be courageous, I’m like, hold my beer, I’m taking the wall, right? But for Joshua, courage was actually obedience, it was trusting the unknown, it was trusting God in the unknown, that’s what takes real courage. And so that’s what I would invite you guys to like, but a life of significance really does start with that choice of obedience. Like, it’s not about who I am, what I know, and what I can do. It’s, God, it’s about you, it’s about what you’re up to, and how I can be a part of it. And as long as that’s your posture, you’ll figure it all out. So that’s my first, I would say, is just lean in, man, with your teams. I want you to feel the joy of your calling without the burden of the results, you’re not in the results business, there’s only one that can do that, Ok?
But here’s the other thing too, you know, in order to become a hall of fame hitter, you only got to hit one out of three. You know, Steph Curry still misses more threes than he makes. We have this idea that we have to have it all figured out in order to move forward and get it right, just get rid of that idea. I would say be really successful right now in, Jim Collins calls it, shooting musket balls before cannonballs, right, get ranged in, try things, see if they work, learn from them, and adapt. Getting from where we are to where we want to be is going to be a little bit of a journey and just, I hope you accept that, but be open to that change, be open to the idea that you don’t have to have all the answers right now, and continue to learn. But I think that starts with the willingness to say, hey, I don’t have all the answers right now, but we know we’re not going back in that direction, so what is it we are going to do? I think that willingness, and that humility to accept that right now is probably the biggest thing.
Yeah, yeah. Where do you get your inspiration? Who do you follow? Who are you reading?
Well, I read a lot, as you can tell, I’m a little bit of a nerd. But yeah, man, you know, my inspiration, I love biographies, I love the stories of guys, you know, you hear about all these fascinating people, and then when you read the biography, you’re like, wow, you are as screwed up as I am. So I always love reading biographies because it makes me feel better about myself. But in all seriousness, man, so yeah, I got done with George Washington, John D. Rockefeller, the most fascinating one in the past two years has been Leonardo da Vinci, though, he may be the most fascinating human of all time.
And a little crazy.
No, a lot crazy.
Yeah, a lot crazy.
Yeah, centuries too early, yeah, he was very much ahead of his time. But yeah, man, I mean, that’s it for me.
Well, your faith story, like how you came to Christ, I mean that is so incredibly awesome, by the way, that before you even stepped foot in a church, or you just didn’t care about the church, but you got to know Jesus, and that’s where you made that decision to follow him, and that led to church. Let that sink in for people, we have that backwards almost every single time. It’s like you got to get yourself into church, and then you’re going to meet the one who can change your life, and that didn’t happen for you.
Yeah, and I know we’re running out of time, but I would say this, I would say, to think about the two decisions and not the one decision that you’re asking people to make. So for me, I had a really bad experience with Christians growing up. And my story is basically this, I grew up in affordable housing, both my parents left before I even graduated high school. And the way I was treated was hard for me, and I just was like, I don’t want to ever put myself through that again. The thing that’s crazy, man, is I never had a problem with God. Like there was a part of me, always, and I believe this is in every human, is an innate desire to believe that he exists. We believe in God, we have a hard time reconciling a good God with the people in the experiences that we have, right? And so think about this from an identity perspective, that if every person you meet hopes for the invitation of the gospel, inherently hopes, but doesn’t identify as a church person, are you asking them to make too many decisions at one time? Meaning, can we be relevant to people and invite them into the story of the gospel without also simultaneously asking them to change their identity? Because for me, I couldn’t go to a church building because I am not a church-going person, I don’t go to church, that’s for the people who need to feel better about the crap they do on Saturday night. That was how I felt about church, right? So you were asking me ultimately to make two choices, not one, and the person who ultimately asked me to only make the one choice I inherently wanted to make is the one who led me to Christ.
Wow. Boom. Ok. Wow. We’ve got the top of the funnel wrong, right? We used to, and you kind of hit on this earlier, Nathan, the top of the funnel, once upon a time, was people walking through the front door of your church building. Today, the top of the funnel is multiple steps removed, and it could be as simple as the search results of a Google search, or a YouTube video, or a social media post, or a friend in your neighborhood, or a colleague at work, or a relative who’s connected to Jesus in some way. But the top of the funnel is no longer people walking through the front door, and i use the word funnel, it’s a business term that a lot of businesses would use in terms of their sales cycle, their buyer’s journey, our faith journey starts somewhere, and in your case and a lot of other people’s cases, it starts far, far away from the front door of a church building. And that’s OK, in fact, people were coming to faith in Jesus for a really, really long time before there were front doors of church buildings. And we forget that, we forget that, sometimes.
We do, for the sake of time, need to wrap this up. This has been an absolutely fascinating and phenomenal conversation. I’m going to hang on to your email address, Nathan, and probably hit you up to do this again another time because we really only scraped the surface on some things that we could have been discussing. The irony is, you wrote a blog post called How Digital Will Change Multi-Site for Churches, and that’s what got my attention, and that’s what we were going to talk about in this podcast episode before we started talking about all this other stuff. So I’m going to go ahead and link to that blog post in the show notes of this podcast, in case somebody wants to read that. But hey, as we wrap up, if people want to connect with you, what’s the best way for them to do that?
Yeah. So the company that really focuses, we have two companies, it’s ministry-solutions.com, and then our leadership development, leader groups, eents, a lot of content around this subject, that is el.solutions, that’s Executive Leadership Solutions, el.solutions. And it’s Nathan @ both of those URLs, if you will, to contact me.
Nathan, thanks so much for taking time out of your day to hang out with Jason and me. This is really been an awesome conversation and confident that our friends, our listeners, and viewers, will be really blessed by it. Thanks.
Awesome, man. All right, thank you, guys.