Staffing Trends for Churches Since the Pandemic | Todd Rhoades

Bart Blair Leave a Comment

Post Pandemic, the Great Resignation is a trend we are seeing in all areas of life. Todd Rhoades shares how chemistry staffing can help.

Podcast Transcription

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

todd-rhoades-interview.mp4 – CO
Okay. Agatha. Agatha.

All right. It was two men.

Todd’s partner, Matt, that introduced me to Agatha.

Agatha? Yeah.

Now you know. So now you know, because I told Jason it’s Agatha. He’s like Agatha. Where did they come from? This guy named Matt. Who’s.

There you go.

Who’s slightly funny. Notice I didn’t ask Matt to be on the podcast. I asked you, Todd.

I think that’s already been on, though, right?

Look. Well, not on this one.

Oh, really?

No. No.

Okay, well, that’s good.

Just a little bit, I to say.

So I’ll rub it out a little bit.

You have a prettier background than he does. That was really. There we go. End of it there. Okay. All right. Here we go. I’m going to count us down and I’m going to jump right in. All right. Sounds great. Three, two.

Todd Rhodes from Chemistry Staffing, thanks so much for joining us on the show today.

Thank you, Jason. Thanks, Bart.

Hey, so as we often do with our guests, we’d love to hear your story. So, Todd, if you’ll just take a few minutes to just kind of give us the rundown of your ministry background, how you ended up in ministry, and ultimately how you ended up at Chemistry Staffing.

Sure. Well, short story long, do you want that version?

We want all the good juice, all the good stuff.

All the good stuff.

I’ll try and compact it down, not that it’s all that great of a story to tell. So I’m an old worship guy, right? So I started, I graduated college with a degree in broadcasting, a minor in music, and was always passionate about the church, passionate about worship and music, and started right out of college, as we used to call ourselves, ministers of music. So that’s really dating me at this point, so I was a worship pastor, or a minister of music, for about 15 years. And at that same time, I was also kind of a computer geek. You know, again, I’m dating myself back when you guys might not remember, but back when Al Gore invented the interwebs. I was, you know, kind of piddling around with that and really liked it. You know, I had the CompuServe, and the AOL, and Prodigy, and all of that. Boy, I’m really dating myself. But really kind of loved both the church and worship, but then also kind of like the technology end of things. And I started a website back, boy, it was like the late nineties, back when the Internet was just getting started. It was called Minister of Music dot com, and it had all kinds of resources for worship pastors, only because I kind of loved figuring out how to build stuff. And there were really absolutely, it’s hard to believe, but there were no worship resources for anybody out there, no way to connect with other worship pastors.

I’m going to pause you right there. I’m going to pause right there, Todd, because I don’t know if you remember when I phoned you up about a year or so ago when I was connecting with Chemistry, I was like, I know this guy, and I’m trying to figure out how I know who this Todd Rhodes guy is. Well, in the late 90s and early 2000, I was a worship pastor at a church, and somewhere along the line I found Todd’s resources and may have even been subscribed to a newsletter or something you did, I’m not really sure. But that was like, hey, Todd Rhodes is a worship leader or a music minister, and that was kind of that connection two decades ago.

Oh, that’s crazy, that’s crazy. But anyway, I’m making this story way too long. But one of the pages I had on that resource page for worship pastors was a church jobs page. Where I would just, I said, hey, if your church is looking for a worship pastor job, or you’re looking for a new church, just let me know, and I would literally cut and paste it into this text web page. And after about a month of having that, it was like the most popular page on the whole website. So I thought, well, that’s interesting, there seems to be a demand for this, even though it’s early. I wonder if it works for senior pastors, churches trying to find senior pastors, and youth pastors, and all that. So I started a website called Church Staffing dot com, which is still up and going. I built that website and managed that website for about six years, ended up selling it, and it’s still with the same owners and they’re doing great work and connecting a lot of churches and church leaders in their staffing needs, still today.

So that was kind of how I got into the staffing space. After I sold Church Staffing, I went and worked with Leadership Network out of Dallas, they work with a lot of larger churches around some innovative ministry things like multi-site and all different kinds of ministry things. I did that for about a dozen years, but I still always had this itch of, how can we make staffing better in local churches? Because I’ve been on both sides, I’ve been on the staff side where I was looking for roles and transitioning in and out of roles, I’ve also been on the church board side, on the elder side, where you have to hire and sometimes let people go. And I just knew that the transition time, for both churches and staff, is just an incredibly stressful time.

So I had a good friend, Matt Steen, that we started talking about, there needs to be maybe some better solutions, particularly for small to medium-sized churches, that they can get some outside expertise and help in the hiring process. You know, there are some great staffing firms out there that just because of their pricing structure and their model, it’s very expensive for some small to medium-sized churches, they do really well for large churches. So we’ve decided, let’s see if there’s a way that we can come alongside churches and help them find what we call healthy long-term fits which are, we can talk about that a little bit, but five years or more is what we think the sweet spot is, which would dramatically increase from what the average is right now. So that’s kind of how we decide whether or not we’re able to move the measurement a little bit. But if we can help leverage technology, and come alongside churches to help them to be able to find these healthy long-term fits, and do it at a price that small and medium-sized churches can afford, then we thought we’d give that a go and see if that’s something that we could kind of help churches with. And we’ve been doing this, this is our fifth year, and right now I think we’re doing almost 70 searches right now, or in the process of starting, so God’s really blessed it. And we love Jesus, we love the church, Matt and I are both, and our team, we all kind of geek out about stuff like that, and how we can merge some technology and kind of help churches find those good, healthy, long-term fits.

Practically, how do you do that? When a church wants to hire you, what are they hiring?

Sure. Well, let me first say that we think, this is kind of goes into our philosophy of like I said, healthy, long-term fits, trying to find somebody that can be on your team at your church for five years or more, we think there are five things that both the church and the candidate need to agree on, five different areas. And if you can hit all of these five areas, we think you’ve got a really good shot at being able to have a healthy, long-term person that will be at your church for five years or more. Four of these we assess for, the fifth one is on the church and the candidate to kind of figure out on their own. But I’ll go over those really, really briefly. In order for your church to find a healthy, long-term fit, or if you’re a church staff person and you’re looking to find a new church job, you need to have these five things in common with your new church in order for you to be a healthy, long term fit.

First is theology, and we assess for all of these on the very front end of all of our searches with both the churches and the candidates, and I can tell you how we do that in a second. But theology, we assess for theology, we ask 25 questions on theology, and what we’re really trying to do with each of these areas is to try and find red flags, yellow flags, and green flags. So like for theology, a red flag would be something that, if there’s a red flag, it’s probably not going to work. Like if a church tells us that they believe in the virgin birth, but a candidate tells us that they don’t believe in the virgin birth, that’s a nonstarter, it’s not going to work, it’s not going to be a healthy, long term fit. Green flags are easy to find, you’re in agreement. The yellow flags are, a lot of times even on theology and cultural issues, the yellow flags are sometimes those things that aren’t as immediately identifiable, and the process that we use kind of asks the right questions to get those issues on the table. Because yellow flags can go either way, they can be like, oh, that’s not a big deal, you’re going to fit really well here, or it could be, no, that’s a big enough issue that we need to really discuss it. It’s the yellow flag issues, honestly, guys, that 12 or 18 months in is going to have everybody scratching their heads saying, why in the world did we do this? Why did I move my family four states away to come here, to just now find this kind of thing out? All right, so red flags, yellow flags, green flags.

The first is theology, the second is church culture and DNA. We ask 25 questions on church culture and DNA, if there’s not a good fit culture-wise, then the chances of there being a healthy, long-term fit go down the drain really quickly.

So theology, church culture and DNA, the third one is personality, which is to be a personality fit between you and the church and the team.

And then the fourth is skills and abilities, so you need to be able to have, if you’re hiring someone, they need to be able to have the skillset and the experience to do the job that you want them to do.

So we assess on those four things, and the way that we do it is we ask every candidate that applies for any of our jobs to take these four assessments. And then what we do is, we also ask the church, when we do our onboarding with the church, to take these same assessments, and we put them together almost like an eHarmony kind of a thing if I can say that without getting sued by eHarmony. But put those together, and that helps us to identify the red flags, yellow flags, and green flags, and helps us to know with our interview teams who we need to start talking to. And then we’ll start the process, we’ll go through up to three interviews with each candidate for a specific role at a specific church. And if they pass those three, and again, with the assessments and the three interviews, and all of our interviewers are all either full-time or retired ministry folks, so it’s almost like talking shop rather than like a sit-down formal interview, and it’s all done over Zoom.

But anyway, just to wrap that up, those are the four things, the fifth thing is chemistry. And that’s when we tell the church and the candidate, hey, this is boots on the ground, this is something that you guys have to figure out for yourselves. This is, do I like the church, does my spouse like the church, would we go there if we weren’t on staff, things like that. Do we fit the team culture? Are these people that I want to not only do ministry with, and work with, but do I want to do life with these people? If you’re a senior pastor and you’re looking to hire somebody, is this somebody that I not only want to have on my team and work with at the church but would I want to have them and their family over to my house on Tuesday night for a barbecue? Those are the kind of chemistry things that we can do a really good job we think of assessing for the first four things, the fifth thing is really what you learn when you meet each other, you sit across the table, you sit across the dinner table from each other, and just figure out, okay, these four things seem to match up, do we have the necessary chemistry and relational potential to make this really be a healthy long-term fit?

Well, I really like that approach with those five areas, and it seems like, and this is a question for you. It seems like churches will hire within for specific jobs, or they’ll be looking for a professional, you know, like a teaching pastor or somebody who plays music really well or something like that, it might be something you’re outsourcing to bring in somebody from a distance. But I think, regardless, is this your experience, regardless, if you’re hiring within your own congregation or looking out, you probably want to apply those same principles to that candidate, right, does that makes sense?

Yeah, and actually, we offer a service for churches that are doing that. So churches can hire us to run that whole process, do the whole marketing thing of all their positions, find all the candidates, all that kind of thing. Also, if churches are doing it on their own, the biggest fear churches have, whether they’re hiring an internal candidate or an external candidate when they’re doing it on their own is, we don’t want to goof this thing up.

Yeah.

Right? We don’t want to make a bad hire. So one of the things we offer is, it’s called a final fit assessment, which is essentially everything we do with the assessments and the interview process, but it comes at the tail end of it. So if you’re doing a search for a new youth pastor, and you find your final two guys and you just want an outside set of eyes and ears on it, you can hire us to come in and it takes about 8 to 10 days, but we actually run through the assessment with the church, find out exactly what you’re looking for, find out all the theology and the culture and all that kind of stuff, then we take those two candidates and we run them through that assessment process, run them through our interview process, and then come back and give the church kind of a final report and say, here’s what our assessment is as kind of outside professionals that don’t have a dog in your fight. And maybe here, and this is, I think, what’s the most valuable in this for the church in this situation is here are some of the yellows that we’ve maybe discovered that you didn’t see. And before, you know, you really like this person or these two people, before you make an offer to them, here are a couple of conversations that it would probably be wise for you to have and just make sure that you know, 12 to 18 months down the road, these yellows that we’ve kind of identified don’t become a deal-breaker.

Yeah. Yeah.

And on the internal thing, we encourage, I mean, this seems kind of backward for a staffing company, but we love internal hires. Internal hires have a lot of, it doesn’t help us pay our mortgage, but internal hires a lot of times for churches, not always, but a lot of times you can knock a couple of those four right off the bat, right? Because they’re already aligned with you theologically, they’re already aligned with you culturally, they’re very well might be the chemistry, and they’re a known commodity, you kind of know what you’re getting. The biggest reason more churches don’t hire internally is because they think, in their head, I need to have a professional. It’s like if you have a good discipleship program and a good mentoring program in your church, and you’ve got a volunteer that’s hitting it out of the park, man, those can turn into really, really great team members.

Speaking of maybe misunderstanding, why do churches, or what are some of the misconceptions of hiring a firm like you guys to step in and help us find our next valuable candidate, right, our next valuable employee, versus us doing it on our own? What are some of those misunderstandings that churches have?

Well, I mean, I think the biggest concern is that it’s going to cost us way too much money, that we just don’t have it budgeted. And I can tell you this, whether you go with a firm or whether you do it internally, it’s going to cost some money, and chances are you didn’t have that money budgeted. You don’t usually budget for those knocks on your door at 10:00 in the morning when somebody says, hey, I’m leaving. One of the things that, again, makes us unique is that our pricing structure is different than some of the other firms, we’re kind of a flat rate. And like I said, we leverage technology, so we’re not hopping on planes and flying across the country to visit you or candidates which can really make the cost much more expensive, so we can help bring the price down. But a lot of people are surprised that it’s not nearly as expensive, at least with Chemistry, as what it is with some of the other firms.

A couple of the other things is sometimes people think that if you’re hiring a search firm, that it’s going to be two weeks and we’ll have our person. And we might be talking about this here in the next part, but particularly out of COVID, things have changed a lot, it’s very much a candidates market, things have changed a lot when it comes to how churches are hiring, and it’s changed a lot from our perspective as to what candidates are looking for and those kinds of things. So a lot of times churches will call us and they’re kind of looking for a unicorn, you know, hey, we’ve been trying to find this, you know, 18 to 20-year-old Hispanic worship pastor who does not like Hillsong but likes Bethel, and is not married but is engaged, and a lot of different filters on there. And you know, the more filters you put, the longer your search can take, not always, but a lot of times it can take longer. But that’s just general advice as to whether you’re hiring a firm or whether you’re doing that search on your own.

What are some of those trends that you’re seeing? I mean, the great resignation comes to mind. What else is out there that you’re having to deal with that in a sense, you’re taking that burden from the church, so to speak, to deal with those issues? What are some of those?

Sure, sure. Well, and we can mention this at the end, but if you go to Chemistrystaffing.com/greatresignation, we’ve actually written, it’s about a 30 page PDF that has kind of all of our findings, and it’s really some of the only work that I’ve seen published on the great resignation specifically as it applies to the church. I’m sure there are others out there, but this is something that we’ve kind of had a front door seat to see some of these trends, and tons of things have happened. I would say as a general rule, if you’ve read any of the secular press writings on the great resignation, I would say that just about everything I’ve read in the secular press, it amazes me because this isn’t always the case, but everything that we’ve read in the secular press on the great resignation is totally the same in the church. So it’s real, it’s real in the secular, I mean, I kind of make the joke. I mean, in my town, I live in a little town called Bryan, Ohio, there’s a sign up on Burger King outside that says interviews on the spot. I mean, they will literally, if you walk in there, they will take your interview and they will put you on the flame griller, you know, in an hour, because they’re having trouble finding really good, qualified people, you know, even for Burger King. We’re seeing the same thing in churches, so right now, lots of churches are hiring and there are less candidates, so it’s very much a candidates market.

Some of the trends we’ve seen as to why there are less candidates, and there are less candidates, and then there are less candidates. I’ll explain that, there are less candidates on the top, if you take off a top layer of what the candidate pool was, say, in early 2020, take off a top tier of people that have just gotten out of the ministry, that have just gone through COVID, and they’re just…We see this all across the board, we see it with senior pastors, particularly my age, even late forties, late fifties, that we’re looking at succession plans in early 2020, figured they had five or ten more years in them. They got through COVID, and just have decided, yeah, I think it’s time. And two reasons we’re hearing there is, number one, I’m just tired, I’m just burned out and tired, and I don’t have the energy. And the second is, ministry has changed so much that I don’t think I’m the right person to make the changes that I know need to be made in my church coming out of COVID. So that takes off a number of senior pastors from the market. We’ve especially seen it too, with student ministry and worship and kids and family. That sounds like a pretty wide swath, but those children, youths, and kids have been the ones that have really suffered a lot under COVID. It’s just that ministry has changed, their job descriptions have changed 18 different times. You know, they can’t make a good decision to save their life because whatever decision they make, they tick off somebody else. So a lot of those people, and honestly, some of those support staff people were making $35-40,000 a year, not getting paid really well. And all of a sudden during COVID, they didn’t have to go into church on the weekends, and they found out that they can go work at FedEx, a 9 to 5 job, make as much money with full benefits, and be home every night with their kids. And some of them, at least for a season, are doing that. So you’ve got that whole top tier of people that are just out, and then you’ve got the people that are still in, they’re just, they are just kicked in the face. I mean, they have just gotten all the…The way I describe it, guys, is that everybody that we’ve talked to, I’ve not talked to one person in the last 18 months, two years, that says I’m not tired. This has been a tough season, but everybody seems to be on a spectrum somewhere from I’m tired, to I’m burned out, to I’m angry, or I’m bitter.

And at one point last year, guys, and we talk to candidates all day long every day, it was almost a third of the candidates that we talked to that were…I don’t want this to sound horrible, but just we didn’t feel comfortable passing them on to a church right now, because they’re just they are not, tired is okay, you can recover from tired. Burned out, you know, you might need a little bit of rest.

A little bit more time.

If you’re angry, but I mean, the number of people that were angry and bitter coming out of COVID was just through the roof. It’s getting better, as of the first of this year, but the number of pastors and pastors and support teams that we talked to that were just angry and bitter, and people that said, my kids don’t want to have anything to do with the church, or my wife has not been to church in six months because of conflict, that is just really increased. And that’s one of the things I think that by hiring a firm, whether it’s us or another firm, that that kind of talks with candidates more often, that that’s one of the benefits is being able to have a firm that can kind of weed out some of those because we’re pretty good at sniffing that stuff out. And our approach is we want to coach candidates as much as we can through that, so we have a lot of conversations about, man, you’re just a little beat up right now. And they’re like, yeah, man, I am. It’s like, God’s got a call in your life, but maybe you need to take three months off and go take that FedEx job, go love on your wife, go love on your family, and the call will still be there. Come back and talk to us in three months because we don’t want to send candidates to churches that are taking a lot of baggage with them, or they’re angry, or burnt because they’re just going to take their issues to the new church.

You know, that’s something that’s really interesting because they’re not going to be maybe as transparent with their new boss as they would with you. And so that’s something to really consider if you’re looking to hire, which we are seeing that all over the place. We talk to a lot of churches, and people are leaving, and it’s kind of opened the door for us because we provide some solutions to their, especially when it comes to communications, to their communications staffing pains, we can kind of step in and help out. But we’re seeing that all over the place, and so that makes sense before you pull the trigger and hire somebody, go through the proper steps and channels to make sure you’re not hiring a potential 12 to 18 months issue, nobody wants that.

Yeah. And honestly, you hit on a good point there, Jason, as far as, since we’re not the church, and since our interviewers, as I said, are pastors, we’re pastors, and youth pastors, and student pastors. You know, we all have full-time jobs, most of us have full-time jobs in ministry, so people kind of open up to us a little bit more than they would to a church. And they also allow us to speak in a little bit more, so we can, a lot of times during our interviews, we’ll say, hey, can I take off my interview and put on my coaching hat? So then we can have those kinds of conversations that you as a church employer, you know, that’s just not what you do during an interview, usually, normally.

Yeah. Are you sure you want to take your family and move across the country for this job? Like, you know, wearing a friend hat, I do that often with our staff. I’ll wear your boss hat, but then I’ll just put on my friend hat, let’s have a conversation about this you know, which I think is healthy to do.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. One of the other, just really quick, one of the other things that we’ve noticed that might be of interest to those that are listening is, it used to be pre-COVID that you could, whether you’re using church staffing or a website to kind of put out, you could do a national search. If you’re looking for a student ministry, you could do a national search, and you can still do that. What COVID has done from the candidate side of things is it is really, not in every case but in a lot of cases, restricted geographically where people are willing to go. And here’s why I think this is happening, because I’ve heard this story happen quite often, is that during 2020, when all those shutdowns happened, particularly younger candidates, or candidates with younger kids and families that were maybe spread out eight states away from their family, they missed Thanksgiving that year, they missed Christmas that year because they couldn’t travel because of all the travel restrictions. And when all the restrictions kind of went away and they started, you know, the fog started to clear and they’re like, you know, I’m looking at maybe moving to a different ministry, one of the filters that they had that maybe wouldn’t have been there two years prior was, I want to move back closer to home. So we’re getting a lot more of, I want to be within a day’s drive of Tallahassee, or I want to be within a couple of hours of Columbus. So really, if you’re a church and you’ve not hired for a couple of years, that might be one thing that you really notice is much different is on a national search, maybe this time around may be much more regional or even much more local than what it was a couple of years ago, just because people are just a little more picky as to where they can go. And because of all the things happening, it’s been a perfect storm with that great resignation, it’s a candidates market. So if they want to be within 2 hours of Tallahassee, you know, they’ll wait until there’s something 2 hours from Tallahassee because that job will pop up relatively soon, usually.

Interesting.

Yeah, that’s very fascinating, Todd, and I think you’ve highlighted a few things that I had questions about, particularly, kind of the regionalism of where people are wanting to go. You know, you and I had met a while back, another ministry that I work with has brought in Chemistry Staffing to help us with some searches. And that’s been one of the most frustrating things for me because I know there are some great candidates out there, but they like they want to live in this county, in this state. And it does make it a lot more, it makes it a lot more complicated when you don’t have the full breadth of the country to choose from. But I’ve also talked to guys in ministry who are actively trying to get out of a state because of the way that the state had managed Covid, right? There are political things going on in states and in regions, and pastors are going, I’m not done with ministry, but I’m done with ministry here, I can’t do it here anymore. I’m sure you’re seeing some of that.

It actually does, it works both ways. And it’s larger than just geography, and some of this may be generational, but I think a lot of it is COVID driven, is that there’s just a change in the way many people define calling, right? So I’m old enough to know, you know, my generation calling was many times, hey, I’ll go wherever God wants me to go, and I’ll do whatever God wants me to do, and I’m going to be a pastor for the rest of my life. Those kinds of things were kind of you’re calling, right, you knew that you were going to be in this type of a role somewhere, wherever God called you to be. Well, the calling today, and particularly out of COVID, we’ve seen this shift, it’s shifting to more geographical. Like, yeah, I want to be a pastor, but I want to be a pastor in Florida or I want to be a pastor here or here, but not here or this swath. But it’s also kind of, God has called me to serve him, it doesn’t necessarily have to be as a pastor or a worship pastor, it could be in a nonprofit, it could be, I could fulfill my calling working at FedEx, okay? So that’s just a different kind of definition that we’re seeing compared to what we did maybe 15, 20, 25 years ago. And I’m not saying that’s horrible, I’m just saying it’s changed, it’s changing, particularly with a lot of younger candidates.

It’s been a perfect storm in a lot of ways, I’ve talked to a couple of Christian college and seminary professors in the past couple of weeks that have all said, you know, first of all, our, they wouldn’t say this necessarily publicly, but the number of students that we have is down, the number of students that we’re attracting to our ministry programs is down. But the other thing that I found was really interesting was that a good majority of students that are currently in Christian colleges and ministry programs like student ministry programs, those kinds of things, it’s not their goal to work in a church. They want to go out and they want to work for a nonprofit, or they want to go and work for some kind of youth for Christ, or some other kind of thing outside the church, but they don’t ever see themselves, necessarily, going into being a youth pastor or a staff person on a church staff. So it’s really interesting.

Times are changing. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. This has been a great conversation, Todd. Before we sign off and point people to where they can connect with you, where they can find this 30-page document, you said a 30-page document on the great resignation?

Yeah, it’s a 30 page…

Wow, okay, so you’re ahead of Barna on this, that’s pretty impressive.

I don’t know about that, but…

Yeah, so before we point people in that direction, is there anything that you wish that we had asked you today regarding church staffing, hiring, the search process, anything that we didn’t ask you that you think we should have asked you?

No, not really. Parting thoughts, though, I would say that if you’re a church that’s searching for a staff member, just realize kind of when you’re going into the search that, first of all, God’s not surprised by your need, he’s not surprised at all. The thing is, we don’t know, we only see a part we don’t see the full, right. So I would just ask you, as you come in contact with candidates, and people that you’re interested in, and people that apply that you’re not interested in, be kind and gracious. Churches many times cannot be very good, and you guys are in this space, so you know this, not great at communication sometimes, and job searches are one of those areas. And it’s not the church’s fault, it’s not like anybody says, no, I’m just going to wake up and I’m just going to not communicate with anybody that applies. But when you’re in talks or contact with a candidate, this is somebody that’s in the process of transitioning out of one ministry, which is their life and their livelihood, and chances are all of their relationships and everything is kind of invested in their current church. So some are coming out of great healthy ministries, and some are coming out of really bad situations. But regardless, when you’re talking to these people, it’s a really stressful time, so be gracious and kind to them. Whenever you can, make sure you communicate well with them. We hear from candidates all the time, you know, I applied to 30 churches and didn’t hear back from anybody, and that happens quite often. Whenever you’re looking for somebody and you get a resume, at least pop them an email back that says, hey, we got it and we’re going to take a look at it. Those kinds of things are just really important, but when they’re not there, they’re just soul-sucking for the person that’s going through an already really tough transitional time. And realizing that you and your church are going through a tough time too, you’re having to fill holes, and corral volunteers, and fill things that were maybe normally done by a full-time staff person. But yeah, that would be the one thing, just be kind and gracious because it’s been tough on everybody the last couple of years, everybody’s tired.

Yeah, for sure. Well, Todd, thanks so much for taking the time with us today. I know that you’ve got a road trip ahead of you this afternoon, so we appreciate you squeezing us in. If our audience, our listeners, or our viewers want to connect with you, what’s the best way for them to do that?

Sure, you can drop me an email, and I reply to all my emails, believe it or not. Todd.Rhoades@chemistrystaffing. And that great resignation download, it’s a free download, you can get that at ChemistryStaffing.com/Greatresignation, and I think there would be some good information if you’re interested in some of the things that we’re seeing, particularly in the past year, 18 months, that document really tries to lay out some of the things that we’re seeing if you’re in the process of starting to hire somebody for your search.

Yeah.

Yeah, that’s great. Thanks, Todd, we appreciate you being on the show today.

Thank you.

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