Protect Your Church During a Crisis | Phil Cooke

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Phil Cooke, author of Church on Trial, discusses with what he wrote about in his new book on how to protect your church during a crisis

Podcast Transcription


Jason Hamrock: Well, Phil, welcome back to the show. How have you been, my friend?

Phil Cooke: I’ve been very, very well. It’s the thrill to be back. I went to your website the other day and noticed this is my third time, so I hope I’m not over, you know, overexposing myself on your podcast.

Jason Hamrock: No, I’ll speak on behalf of Bart and myself and everybody who listens, we love having you on the show because every time you’re on, we learn something new.

Phil Cooke: You’re very, very kind. I appreciate it.

Jason Hamrock: Yeah, yeah. And you’re going through some transitions, kind of picking up and moving, and just a lot going on in your world, huh?

Phil Cooke: Yeah, we’re picking up and moving. We’re leaving from California, and moving to Franklin, Tennessee, Nashville, and I’m following the grandkids, you just do that when you get to a certain point in your life. And doing what I do with producing, programming, and consulting with churches and ministry organizations, I can do that from anywhere. And so actually, it’ll put me closer to a lot of the clients we work with. So I’m excited about it, and we’re actually looking forward to it. I’ll miss a lot of people in LA, but we’ll be coming back from time to time.

Jason Hamrock: Oh yeah, yeah. Well, they’re going to be blessed to have you out there. So yeah.

Phil Cooke: It’ll be fun.

Jason Hamrock: All right, so I’m really excited to really just dive into our topic today, and that is you, you wrote another book.

Phil Cooke: Yeah, I wrote another book. I can’t help it.

Jason Hamrock: Yeah. Talk to us about this new book you wrote.

Phil Cooke: Well, I wrote a book called Church on Trial: How to protect your congregation, mission, and reputation during a crisis. And, you know, a lot of people don’t know that being a media producer all these years, early in my career, I started getting calls from churches that weren’t sure how to handle a crisis. Now, I’m not a therapist, I’m not an attorney, but there are a lot of communication issues related to a crisis. You know, how do we tell this story? Who do we tell it to? do we hide anything? Do we hold back? All these, a million questions. And I would go in and help them write a public statement or a communications, you know, statement. How do we tell the congregation and all these things? And I’ve been involved in so many difficult, challenging, and, frankly, weird situations over the years that I thought, you know, seminaries and Bible colleges don’t teach communication, you know, to pastors and ministry leaders. And I thought they need a handbook, some kind of a reference that they could have on their desk when something goes wrong. Because, man, as you know, you see in the headlines almost every day, some pastors stepping down because of this, or a youth leader is exposed with, you know, abusing children or something weird, or there are embezzlement issues. There are also outside forces, you know, a church is sued or somebody complains about a church on social media, a million things that could happen. And so I just wanted to put a book together that would give them a reference about what to do when a crisis happens. You know, research, tons of research indicates that a business, a church. a nonprofit always do better in a crisis if they’re prepared. So I really want to help churches prepare.

Jason Hamrock: Yeah, I always say it’s not if, it’s just a matter of when.

Phil Cooke: Totally. You know what, social media has made it so easy to say something inappropriate, that a lot of people see, do something inappropriate that a lot of people see. In a text message and email world word travels fast, and it’s just really hard to stop the momentum once it happens. So you’re exactly, exactly right.

Jason Hamrock: Yeah. So would you say this book, which I love, I mean, unfortunately, I love the fact that you’re diving into this topic. Unfortunately, we need it, but it’s just a reality. So would you say this book is written for executives, or comms or, yes?

Phil Cooke: No, I really wrote this for pastors and senior leaders at a church. elders or board of directors at a church. I mean, mostly it’s for churches, ministries, and nonprofit organizations; businesses may have a little different approach sometimes to these things, but for churches and ministries where, you know, people look differently at a spiritual organization and they rightly should, the standard should be high. And so when a crisis happens there, what do you do? And I often tell people that, you know, an attorney should be your first call, and they’re going to be incredibly helpful. But it’s not an attorney’s job to save your reputation necessarily, their job is to win your case in court or defend you effectively. But I’ve actually seen situations where a church or a ministry won their case in court but were pretty much trashed in the media. And a communication person, you know, someone like me who’s going to advise them on those issues, can really help get the story right and help save your reputation in the process. So I think that’s important. My goal is not to protect anybody, you know, the perpetrator, certainly. I’m not here to cover it up or protect the perpetrator, I’m here to help the church survive and move on. So that’s going to be really the theme of what I’m talking about these days.

Jason Hamrock: Yeah. What do you think is, man, let’s dive a little bit into the book, but go buy the book, okay? But tell us, just like, you know, what is like that common mistake that people, that church leaders make?

Phil Cooke: Well, it’s interesting. I think the biggest mistake they make is not thinking a problem will happen, and so they don’t prepare, they don’t train their team. I’ll give you a great example of a church in Chicago, that while I was writing the book, I got word that a church there who had actually the pastor had spent time training his team and his ushers, he had two ushers, that one Sunday noticed there was a new visitor who seemed awfully focused on looking at kids, and he just couldn’t take his eyes off the kids in the church. And so they got a little concerned, a red flag went up and they went over and introduced themselves to him, got his name, and then they checked it, and sure enough, he was a registered sex offender. And so, you know, it was time at that point to sit down and have that conversation with him about where the boundaries are in church life. But that might have never happened had those two ushers not been alert and paying attention. So I really wrote the book for senior leaders, for board members, I mean, the more people that are up to speed when a crisis happens, the better off you are. As I said earlier, you know, the more prepared you are, the better you’ll survive on the other side. And so I think if you can have a team around you that knows how to respond and what to do, it makes a dramatic, dramatic difference.

Jason Hamrock: Yeah. Are there any, well, it’s like almost, Bart was just sharing a few examples in today’s newspaper about churches, but are there any statistics that you’ve uncovered or discovered on how often this happens?

Phil Cooke: You know, it’s hard to tell. There are 300,000 churches, roughly, in the United States. And so we tend to see the headlines, you know, which are the big, mostly sexually driven stories that are out there. The funny thing is, though, there are a lot of other stories about embezzlement. And in the book I talk about a poll of pastors indicated that something like four out of seven pastors have experienced financial misbehavior at their church, somebody embezzled money, someone’s stolen money. I had a couple of media producers I was talking to the other day who are exploring this for a documentary and found out there’s more than $1 billion stolen every year within churches, and so that’s a huge problem. So, you know, and it’s interesting, I made a list for you guys, the top five reasons, let me tell you the top five reasons churches are sued. And that’ll give you an idea of the wide range of these issues. I mean, number one sadly is sexual abuse of a minor. I mean that’s horrible, horrible, horrible, and yet it goes on, and that’s the number one reason churches are sued. The second reason is property disputes. You know, something as mundane as a property dispute that happens more often than we think. The third reason is personal injuries, a kid breaks his leg on the playground, or a painter falls off his ladder while he’s painting the church, a million things can happen there. Zoning issues are a bigger issue than we think, a very large church here in LA a number of years ago, the city tried to take over some of their property for an expansion of some of the things they wanted to do that would generate a tax revenue. They had to go to court, and so zoning issues are a bigger deal than we think. And of course, insurance coverage disputes, very often churches fail to keep up their insurance. And I tell you, in a lot of these crises, particularly accidents, injuries, things like that, an insurance policy can save the church. And so we forget sometimes that they’re not all mega-churches out there, there are a lot of small churches out there and little things can, you know, cause them to actually close their doors. So anything like this, I want to help a church prepare so they can get through it effectively and in a healthy way.

Jason Hamrock: Yeah. You said something earlier that caught my attention. There’s the financial aspect of it, which standing alone, that could make or break your church literally without insurance. And then there’s the public perception, which almost can do just as much harm to your reputation and obviously to God. So, you know, when you think about both of those kinds of things, you know, where does a church start when thinking about, okay, how do we put together a plan? You know, do we type something up and stick it on a shelf and pull it off if we need it? You know, what do you do?

Phil Cooke: Well, you buy my book, of course, that’ll solve your problem. Yeah, I’m teasing. You know, having a communications plan is important because when a crisis hits, it can be very chaotic. Now, many times a crisis is relatively small, it’s not a life and death issue, and that’s no big deal, and other times it is a life and death issue if a minor is involved. And one thing I think we should discuss real quick is that today, by law, if a minor is involved, authorities need to be notified. One of the big problems we’re seeing out there today is that years ago, there were no laws in place about that. And then as the laws were being formed, they were state by state and kind of a patchwork, and pastors didn’t really know what to do, and ministry leaders didn’t know what to do. And now those young people, in fact, very often the parents of a minor would say, look, we just don’t want this to go public, we don’t want to ruin Susan’s experience at school, or John’s experience at school, we want to keep this quiet. And so now those kids are grown up and they’re suing the church or suing the organization because they’re saying, why didn’t you deal with this predator back in the days when I was young? So the bottom line is today, there’s no way out, whether the parents want to keep it private, it doesn’t matter, it needs to be reported. And your attorney should, as I said, be the first call, and he or she will know who to report it to. Now, it is important to understand that, I’ve actually seen pastors who came within a hair’s breadth of going to jail, even though they had nothing to do with the crime, but they didn’t report it in an appropriate amount of time. And one church that was in the news just recently waited seven years to tell the congregation, they just assumed this youth leader, who had this thing with a minor, they didn’t know about the thing with the minor, they thought he was just fired, and they kept everything kind of quiet. And then seven years later, the pastor revealed it to the church. And can you imagine, they don’t trust the pastor anymore, they don’t trust the church anymore. What do you mean that even years ago a kid was abused in our Sunday school program, and you never told us about it? So that’s why telling the story, getting the story out there in the right way is absolutely critical. Because as you say, perception is important and you can destroy trust pretty quickly.

Bart Blair: If I’m a pastor, I am a pastor.

Jason Hamrock: You are a pastor.

Bart Blair: I’m a pastor, I’ve got a church, I’ve got an elder team that helps me lead the church. Talk me through, how would you coach me, Phil? I know that you coach churches through this, and you know you’ve written a book and you’ve written a book because you’ve had hands-on experience in walking churches through these types of situations. Let’s assume that I haven’t yet had the crisis that’s going to put my church on trial, but I want to be a proactive leader, and I want to walk my elders, and my board through a process of putting a plan together. Where do we start? Like, like tangibly, what’s the first thing that we ought to do collectively as a board to start putting our plan together? Communication, I guess there’s internal communication, there’s external communication, there’s who we call as a lawyer, there’s what we say to the press and what we don’t say to the press. Like how would you lay out and coach me through what I need to do?

Phil Cooke: Well, number one, I always look at the size of the budget. You know, every church is different, there are megachurches, and there are churches of 50 people, and how much you can do really depends on your budget. Now, if you’re a denominational church, if you’re in the Assemblies of God, for instance, or some other denomination, they usually have resources you can tap into, they will have legal guides, they will have training, they will have attorneys that you can consult. So first of all, if you’re a denominational church, look into and explore what denominational resources you may have at your disposal because that can make a big difference right there. If not, start with a budget. And then I always start looking, you know, I put a communication plan together in the form of questions, really. For instance, where is your church located? Is it a dangerous place? You know, should we be more concerned about fencing? Should we be more concerned about security? a lot of churches and, you know, their mission is to reach people in difficult places, so a lot of churches are in dangerous places in the inner city, sometimes in rural areas. So where are you geographically located? That could make a real, real difference. Another question is, does the pastor or anybody on staff, do they have any communication training? Have they ever dealt with any issue like this? There are places where you can go, I can certainly recommend places where you can get some training in how to respond to a crisis like this. Also, social media plays into this in a big way, how we tell the story on social media is important. So do you have a person full time on social media? Are they trained? Too often, churches will have a communication director or a social media person who are more like, you know, they’re almost like McDonald’s employees. Do you want fries with that? They just take orders. You know, we need a postcard to mail for this outreach, or we need an ad in the bulletin, they’re not real strategic thinkers. So you need to get, you know, connected with somebody who strategically understands how to deal with the crisis and how to communicate in those kinds of situations. I would also ask if you have any relationships with local media. Very often it can make a dramatic difference for you if you have a friend inside a media platform in your community. I’ve worked with a number of churches that had a local TV reporter who was a church member. Well, it’s nice to have friendly media on your side, it’s nice to have somebody who will tell your story, and tell it with authority, and tell the truth. That’s really, really important, and I don’t think all reporters are out to get you, but they’re out for a story. And they’d like their story to be, you know, as provocative as possible to get more viewers or readers. So if you have relationships in the media, I think that’s helpful.

Phil Cooke: I also think it’s important to keep insurance policies up to date. You know, we talked about that a little bit earlier, but very often I’ve been in situations where they just didn’t keep insurance policies up to date. And if it was an injury situation, they really had some serious problems. Another thing that is really big for me is vetting employees. I’ll tell you, even with small churches, I would go to the trouble and expense of vetting all my staff. And I would even consider, particularly if you’re a medium to larger church, vetting your volunteer leaders. There are a lot of companies out there,, and there are others as well, that are used to working with churches and understand how to look for crimes in the past, a police record, or anything that would cause you to be afraid. We want to trust, we’re Christians, we want to trust everybody. But the truth is, you just never know who might be applying for a job at your church. I actually heard of a church when I was writing the book that, they had a young man applying to be their youth director, and while the application process was going on, he was about to be interviewed, in his final interview, a woman came forward and said, look, I’m an only fans model, which means a nude model essentially online. And she said this guy is one of my biggest fans, he follows me like crazy, and of course, that ended that interview right away. So you just never know what’s going on in people’s lives out there, and it’s important to figure out those things.

Phil Cooke: A couple last quick things I would say is your security team. You know, churches, I wrote a blog post about the importance of professional security just recently, and I got a lot of pushback from pastors who will say, you know, I don’t want my church to feel like, you know, TSA at the airport. I don’t want that vibe in my church. Well, again, you never know. I’m sure that church in Charleston a few years ago that had that young man come shoot up a bunch of people right after the service, I’m sure they might not have wanted to have that kind of feeling, but look at the lives a good security team might have saved. That shooting in Nashville that happened even more recently. We just don’t know, there’s just a lot of disturbed, mentally unhealthy people out there, and we just don’t know what could happen. And I just think a trained security team, doesn’t have to be obvious, I did visit a church one time on the East Coast that you pulled up to the church, and there was a police car parked by the front door. You walked in and there were three officers in uniform in the lobby, there was a giant security desk off to the side with big monitors and guys with badges, and that did feel like that was a little over the top. There’s a way you can integrate a good security team into your church so that people don’t even notice, and I think that’s so very, very important.

Bart Blair: I’m kind of giggling because my home church is one of those churches where there is a cruiser parked in front of the door, and there are armed police officers in uniform in the lobby. The pastors have a tail that’s obvious that they, you know, they got the little curly earpieces, and everybody knows who the tail is. I’m going to take this opportunity just to mention this, and I don’t know if you get into this in the book at all, but, most churches are unaware of the fact that the federal government, FEMA, actually offers a grant, a pretty significant grant for nonprofits that are trying to upgrade or implement new security features in their building, I will link to that in the show notes of this episode. I know a few churches, some of our Missional Marketing partner churches that have actually received tens of thousands of dollars to add security cameras to security doors and things on their property. And I’ll tell you what, if the government is willing to pay for it, then why not? And a pretty high percentage of applicants that apply, get it, especially those that are in higher-risk areas. If you’re in an urban center, or your church is in a building, or in an area in a community where crime tends to be a little bit higher, you have a much higher chance of actually qualifying for those.

Phil Cooke: I would love to see that link. My wife and I are on boards of the Salvation Army, and they have churches in extremely high-risk places because they’re doing amazing work and very difficult places, and that’d be a great thing to pass on. So that’s really fantastic.

Bart Blair: I will send that to you, Phil

Phil Cooke: Thank you.

Jason Hamrock: You know, one thing that, I get phone calls every now and then where a church wants to talk to me because something happened. And, no doubt, you google the name of that church, and there’s that article, and it is number two or number three. And they’re asking, how did that pop up so high? And I have to teach them about search engine optimization and the fact, that news station has high-rank authority, so when they post something and they link to your church’s name, it’s going to show up almost immediately.

Phil Cooke: I know a ministry where a pastor, I mean, the ministry leader was arrested for drunk driving years and years ago. And if you Google that ministry, his mugshot is the first thing that pops up, and the first page or two is news stories about that incident. And like you say, it’s horrifying, particularly once a crisis is over, you know, that person is stepped down or they’ve been dealt with and you’re moving on and you don’t want people to, you know, you’re a new church and you don’t want people to see that, at least on the first page. And I think you’re exactly right, get somebody, connect with somebody, Google doesn’t like people messing around with their search results, but there are inexpensive ways to fix it. One of the cheapest ways, and I’m a big believer in this is I’m shocked pastors don’t get up in the pulpit and say, hey, if this church has meant a lot to you, talk to people about it, write on your blog about it, write on your Facebook page about it, write an article about it. You know we think in terms of, you know, PR in terms of what happens if something bad goes down, but we don’t think in terms of telling about the positive stories that happen in our church. So the more good stories are out there, the more that negative stuff gets eventually pushed down, so even inexpensive ways like that can make a big difference.

Jason Hamrock: I’ve actually given advice to smaller churches, change your name?

Phil Cooke: Oh yeah.

Jason Hamrock: Just change your domain name, change your name, reset, and go from there. Because I’ll tell you, that article is never going to go away.

Phil Cooke: There is a place, I think, where the negative baggage becomes so big, so heavy, that changing your name is a really significant and really important option. So that’s great advice right there.

Bart Blair: Yeah. Let me comment on what you said there for just a second Phil because our primary audience here that’s listening are communications directors for the most part, the are people who are responsible for the communications in their church. And one of the things that I coach churches on as they’re going through any type of situation like this is, you know, the best way, as you just said, to deal with bad press is to bury it with good press. Most of our churches, generally speaking, do not have a consistent or regular plan for press releases to even promote the positive things that they’re doing. And every church’s communication strategy ought to have a regular rhythm of releasing press releases when good things are happening. You’re sending a team of high school students to Honduras on a mission trip, send out a press release. You’re hosting a marriage conference, send out a press release. Whatever it is that your church is doing that is a positive vibe, something that can be celebrated not just in the church, but something in the community, you need to have a rhythm of releasing press releases. You build relationships with people in the media, and what most people don’t realize is that people in the media are typically looking for stories to tell, and if we’re writing and creating good press releases and sending them out consistently, we’re helping them do their job and they want to write articles about us. Now, obviously, there are going to be some folks out there that could care less about what your church is doing, but there are the folks out there who will. And if you do have some bad press out there that’s, you know, ranking high on the internet when people Google your church’s name, getting into a regular rhythm of releasing press releases is one of the best ways to combat that.

Phil Cooke: That’s absolutely true. And people think in the digital age that press releases are dead, but they’re really not, because you never know. I’m constantly amazed at requests I’ll get from somebody who saw a press release we sent out, you know, from winning some award at a film competition or from releasing a book, it’s just really interesting. In fact, I had a conversation with our team this morning about a release about this new book, and I thought even if we didn’t send it out as a press release, just putting it on our website puts it out there online. So just get that story out, get your stories out there. We don’t think about it enough, and I think we forget how exponential social media is. And if we had everybody in our congregation talking about this amazing church, their friends are going to see it, their friends are going to talk about it, and they’ll pass it around. It’s just amazing how many people will end up seeing something like that.

Jason Hamrock: Yeah, yeah. I always encourage, you know, obviously local, to go to your local media and just research those and ask them how you can submit a press release. Or go to, and just simple ways you know, but all that stuff really helps especially when something negative happens, you’re going to be more equipped to combat that.

Phil Cooke: That is absolutely true, absolutely true. Church on Trial is really a manual for that. I just want people to underline it, dog-ear it, you know, share it with your senior team, I think it’s really critical.

Bart Blair: When’s the book coming out? It’s not out just yet, is it Phil?

Phil Cooke: [inaudible] day is July 1st. And so you could preorder it on my blog at, but it actually becomes available in July, and so yeah we’re really excited about that. But I mean, it’s interesting that you mentioned that so many communication directors are listening. I would say this to communication directors at churches and ministry organizations, you know, if you want your career to move forward, get past the order-taking stage. You know, I kind of mentioned that a minute ago. You know, get to the place where you become a strategic thinker. If you look at some of the most effective churches in America, the communication director is probably the number two voice in that church. They’re there to really advise the pastor, consult with the team, give them ideas, you know, be an idea generator, and this is one area where the more you learn about crisis situations, the more you’re going to be the person that steps up. I even talk in the book about the kind of communication director who could step up and be the spokesperson during a crisis. You know, very often we want the pastor or ministry leader to be the spokesperson, but in many cases, they’re, you know, knee-deep in dealing with the crisis and we need someone else. And so when the communication director is really articulate, really good in front of a camera, knows the facts, and knows this stuff, that’s the perfect person to have in front of you telling the story about what’s going on.

Jason Hamrock: Yeah, yeah, I got to do that for my church. Praise the Lord that I never had to deal with bad press, but I got to deal with good press which is fun.

Phil Cooke: That’s good, that’s good. Well, good press is a good way to start, so that way if the bad press happens, you’re ready for it.

Jason Hamrock: You know, another little nugget is that I made friends with some of the local media, and I’d take them to lunch.

Phil Cooke: Oh, yeah.

Jason Hamrock: It’s relationships, this whole thing is about relationships. And you are in the, you know, the news business if you’re a communication director, you’re you’re pushing news. And so you just want to, you know, take a minute to focus on that.

Phil Cooke: Jason, that’s so good. Along that line, in the book, I talk about pastor Jack Hayford, who was our pastor at Church On The Way here in LA for 20-some years. And early in his, you know, he told me that when he first came to Church On The Way, and it was the first Foursquare Church in Van Nuys, nobody knew about it, and nobody knew about Jack Hayford. He said, he just had a brainstorm to call the religion editor of the LA Times and take him to lunch. And he said, look, I know you’re dealing with a lot of stuff because the religion editor was talking about all the religions there are in LA and how much he has to do. And he said, look, I don’t know anything about those other religious faiths, but I know a lot about Christianity, and when a story comes up or you need research done, I’ll put my staff at your disposal and I’ll do whatever I can to help you. And that developed into a friendship over 20-some years, that all during that time, whenever a story would come up in the LA Times about Christianity or any aspect of it, guess who got quoted? It was always Jack Hayford. I mean, we made a joke that Jack got millions of dollars in publicity free just from being that guy.

Jason Hamrock: Just for taking them to lunch.

Phil Cooke: Yeah.

Bart Blair: I’m having a I’m having a deja vu moment. Phil, did you tell that story in one of your other books?

Phil Cooke: I may have.

Bart Blair: I’ve read that story, and I think I must have read it in one of Phil Cooke’s books.

Phil Cooke: Well, you know, and, nowadays, most newspapers and TV stations don’t have a religion editor, but there’s somebody there who will deal with those stories. Find out who that person is as much as you can, and offer to help them, offer to take them to lunch. Develop a relationship because, as I said, you have no idea the number of times I’ve been knee-deep in a crisis with a church, and the pastor just mentioned, oh well, you know, the news anchor for the local TV station is a church member. Well, hello, let’s give her a call. You know, so it just makes a big difference.

Jason Hamrock: Yeah. Okay. So, is there anything we didn’t ask that that you feel like we should dive into?

Phil Cooke: One thing I’m really big on in the book is red flags. You know, we’re all Christians, and we want to think the best of everybody. But I’ve discovered that as a result of that, we often don’t pay attention to red flags when they show up. Now, we don’t want to become a behavior cop at church. We don’t want to start accusing people because a false accusation can destroy a life and it can damage a church. But just being aware, I mentioned those ushers, just that were paying attention to that new visitor that was looking at the kids, you know, the other day. Being aware, you know, maybe it’s a youth director that’s spending a little too much time with one girl in the youth group, or maybe it’s an executive pastor who comes in strangely looking like he has a hangover every morning, maybe it’s time to sit down and have a little conversation with that person, pr go to a senior leader if you see it and say, I’ve been noticing this about Sam, maybe we should have a conversation. Because if we could, you know, nip it in the bud, as they say, if we could stop the problem when that red flag first appears…It’s interesting that in almost every case, when I’ve helped a church navigate through a crisis, when we get on the other side, I’ll often get the senior team together and I’ll say, okay, knowing what you know now, looking back over the last year, maybe two years, were there red flags that you should have noticed that you didn’t? And in almost every case they’ll say, absolutely. Now I know why Bob was doing this, and now I know why Susan kept doing that, or why Sam didn’t show up here. And so I just think that if we were just more sensitive about red flags in a positive way, not here to condemn anybody, not here to judge somebody. But when we see something, you know, at the airport, they say if you see something, say something. And we probably should do that more in church and ministry situations because it could literally save a life.

Jason Hamrock: Yeah. So good, so good. All right, so hey everybody go get this book, it’s going to, not only get it, you know, open it up, earmark it hand it out to leadership. Buy one for the whole leadership team, and make sure you’re well-equipped and prepared for anything.

Bart Blair: is where you said people can find it.

Phil Cooke: Phil Cooke with an, and absolutely, go get it and preorder it, you’ll be the first to get it. But then in July, it’ll start being available everywhere.

Jason Hamrock: Fantastic. Phil, thank you so much.

Phil Cooke: Hey, thank you, guys, you were fantastic. You do the best questions ever, so I really enjoy being on the podcast. You guys are great.

Bart Blair: Good. Well, tell your friends about us, and we’ll tell our friends about you. And, hey, we’ll be praying that you’re California to Tennessee move goes smoothly and that none of your awards get broken in the boxes in transit, and whatever else is important to you. The reunion with your grandkids, that that’s the most important thing.

Jason Hamrock: That’s precious.

Bart Blair: Hey, for those of you who made it all the way to the end of this podcast episode, thank you so much for being a listener or a watcher of the Missional Marketing Podcast, we appreciate that. Remember that if you haven’t left us a rating or review wherever you consume this content, we would love that. And if you haven’t yet subscribed, wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts, be sure that you do that so that you don’t miss any future episodes. On behalf of Phil Cooke and Jason Hamrock, I’m Bart Blair, and this has been another episode of the Missional Marketing Podcast.

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