New Metrics for Church Growth and Discipleship | Tyler Sansom

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Today our guest Tyler Sansom of First Capital Church shares how they are using new metrics to measure their church growth and discipleship.

Podcast Notes




Podcast Transcription


Well, it is my privilege to welcome Tyler Sansom to the show today. Tyler, thanks so much for hanging out with Jason and me.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Hey, one of the things that we like to do as we get the show started is just to hear a little bit of the back story of the guests that we’re interviewing. So why don’t you take a few minutes to just sort of tell us the very interesting story about sort of how you ended up in ministry and what you’ve been doing lately, and how you ended up where you are today?

Yep. So I grew up playing football. I’m from a very football-driven community, like die-hard, the town shuts down for all the high school games and the college games kind of community. So that was ingrained in my being, and my goal in life was to make it and play in college, and get a scholarship to play in college. And so I spent most of my adolescence in high school dreaming about that, focusing on that, working towards that. And finally, out of high school, I ended up having like 13 scholarship offers. I got to go play ball. It was the dream scenario, my best friend, since I was five and I got to play together at the same school, we roomed together, and then in the first game I broke my neck and it was devastating. So I still had this dream in my mind, after it healed and all that stuff, I transferred to a much smaller school called Kentucky Christian. And didn’t really have any interest in going into ministry or any of that stuff, but the coach that was there had just come out of the NFL and I feel like God placed him in my life to lead me into ministry because right before our first game we were having our final scrimmage and I broke my arm the next season.

And so this dream of playing ball was kind of sidelined pretty quickly, and my coach took me aside and he had kind of really spoken into my life and said, I think God has a different plan for you. I’ve always been pretty musically inclined, and so shortly after I broke my arm, I had a church in a place called Corydon Indiana, which is a place I’d never heard of, randomly call me and say that through a couple of mutual friends they had heard me lead worship on a 4th of July event, and they wanted to know if I’d be interested in coming to be their worship pastor. And I was 19 at the time, so I left school and came to First Capital when I was 19, and I was there for about three years.

And the Mega-Church World was really appealing to about a 22-year-old worship guy, so I got to go lead worship at a really large church called Northview Church in Indianapolis, and I was there for about ten months and realized that I had a lot of pride when it comes to leading worship. And I love the spotlight and the stage, and I felt like God was telling me, you need to go do something else. This is not healthy for you, I’ve got something bigger for you. So I called First Capital back, and I basically told them those things and I told them, I don’t know what it is yet, but is there any chance I could come back? I will clean the floors, like that was kind of the conversation. And graciously, they welcomed me back in an online pastor role, which was way before online pastors were cool. So in 2015, I got to start doing online ministry, and we started something called church anywhere that really blew up. Since then, we’ve been able to baptize somewhere around 500 people just through online and microsite connections. And then our lead pastor who was there for 19 years, decided that it was time for him to retire, he’s almost 70. And last year, they approached me about becoming the next lead pastor here. And this January, I got confirmed, so I’m almost four months on the job right now.

Wow. And you haven’t broken anything, right? Nothing?

Not so far, the church is still standing, so, like everything’s okay right now.

Oh, well, I met Tyler years ago at the Church IT Network Conference, and it was fun. I got to hang out with this guy, and he taught me quite a bit just from what this church is doing, you know, in the literally in the sticks, literally out there in the sticks and they are making a huge impact. And one thing you taught me, Tyler, and I mentioned this earlier, and I’ll say it here again, is when it comes to like social media engagement, when you’re trying to make an impact and reach more people, don’t go it alone. You know, recruit a team of volunteers, not only just to post stuff, but to actually respond and be your team that’s going to make comments and share and like and all that kind of stuff. Expanded on how did you come up with that? Where did that go? And how is that innovation of yours and where you’re thinking that through being creative, how has that driven you to do what you do today?

Yeah. So like in 2015 or so, when we first jumped on online, we knew that social media would be a huge part of it. When I say jumped on online, I don’t mean just like throwing our service on there, we had made a conscious decision to try to use the Internet like as a tool for ministry. And so we knew social media would be huge, but back in those days it was like the Wild West on Facebook because there wasn’t a lot of churches, there weren’t a lot of businesses that were using it for engagement, they were using it like a big bulletin board, basically, and it was a little bit before advertising was a main focus for Facebook. So when we first started, the algorithm would just pump our stuff out to everybody. I mean, we had organic reach out like crazy. But then around 2017 or so, the algorithm shifted, it was like a big great panic moment for lots of churches because no longer were they able to put a random post out and get it seen by 10,000 people, they were getting it seen by like 50 people because Facebook switched towards engagement rather than just this organic reach. So I knew at that point we got to do something different, we’ve got to prime the pump in some way. And myself and a couple of our volunteers got together one evening and went through all these different options of what we could do, and we came up with the street team is what we called it at the time, and then it became the social media team because street team sounded a little not ministry like for our people. But yeah, we came up with that idea basically in like one evening and then just launched it, and ever since then have been adjusting it for the algorithm.

Wow. Yeah. So you’re so you just mentioned today that you have these all these microsites, talk about what that looks like. Because you said something that caught my attention that you literally will call people and go, Hey, that’s really cool that you’re doing that, how are you using that for the kingdom? I love that line because it makes people think, so talk a little bit about your strategy with those sites.

Yeah. For us, it’s a twofold strategy. Obviously, we want new people to hear the Gospel, hat’s a huge part of it. New people to hear the Gospel, and new people to be discipled. But on the flip side of that, we want microsite leaders to feel empowered to follow something that they’re passionate about, and then for us to give them some structure to actually use that passion for a purpose in the kingdom and microsites are one of those ways. So for us, a microsite looks like our central team, our staff, providing digital content that’s 30 minutes long, and then giving that to a, we’ll say, an institutional thing, like a jail. So we give 30 minutes of content to a jail, and then a leader from either our online campus or in-person campus, actually being in that jail with them, with the team, and then doing small groups after the 30 minutes of content. And these have been tailored for all these different types of places, recovery centers, jails, hospitals, elementary schools, in people’s homes, wherever it is, we want to take someone’s passion area of where they want to serve and then outfit them with the digital tools to kind of make that happen with some structure, specifically in the microsite area.

And those pop up all over, not just around your own community.

Yeah, they’re there as far away as Kenya and as close as the local county jail.


Can you break down a little bit of what the content looks like that your team is creating for the microsites to use?

Yeah, it really depends, this has been something that’s grown over the years, it really depends on the type of person that we’re reaching. So, for example, in a home campus, like just in a neighborhood, there’s a there’s one that’s about an hour away from here called Salem, that’s the name of the town, and we just send them a cut-down version of the weekend sermon. But for like a recovery center, we’ve got an 18-part series that we just use kind of on a rotation, that’s specifically for them. So it’s still messages, still by our team, but we’ve shot those in advance and we kind of go through a rotation. Typically, people are at a recovery center for six months to nine months, so that 18-part series kind of gets them all the way through if they stay through one round of treatment. And so we can just kind of loop those back and forth because new people are constantly coming in, and we’ll change them up every couple of years, but that’s the kind of thing that we do. It’d be similar, we have one at an orphanage, so we make some more youth-oriented things. We have one at a YMCA for children whose parents are in prison, that was somebody’s passion, and so we’ve made content for them. It really just depends on the audience.


I’m a little bit old school, so help me understand this. So if I go to one of these microsites, you’re going to hand me a bulletin? Are we going to sing songs? Are you going to pass an offering basket? Like literally, is it just people hanging out, consuming content, then having a conversation about it, that’s what it looks like?

Yeah. And then we, if they’ve given their life to Jesus or if they’re interested in learning what it looks like to be a Jesus follower, then we’ll do baptisms in bathtubs or horse troughs or whatever’s available. And then we’ll pair them one on one with somebody who will walk beside of them for the first six weeks of their journey, and hopefully beyond that. but we have digital tools that we’ve created that literally is six weeks, every single day, something that someone can walk beside of someone who’s a new follower of Christ no matter where they’re at. And so that’s kind of what it looks like, people hanging out, sometimes they sing. If the microsite is not super interested in singing, then we don’t put singing in the content. We kind of just lean on the leaders to help us understand what content works best. But our goal is just to have people who are passionate about something, pursuing that for the kingdom, and then out of that, more people find their passion and they break out and make another microsite because they’ve found their purpose for the kingdom and so on and so on.

That is amazing. I’ve got to say the obvious, you’re not a typical lead pastor. You’re an online pastor who’s figured out how to do online ministry and reach people anywhere wearing the title of lead pastor. Because this is so innovative because I have so many conversations with online pastors, you know, they were elevated, they were the student pastor, now they’re the online pastor, or they are hired to be an online pastor and they haven’t figured out what that even looks like. You guys have figured that out, you have figured out how to go out and create these microsites kind of burst things and then whatever’s happened in there, from there, they just keep growing. And what a cool, like I guess in my hearing this, it’s just clicking with me that you’ve had this ability to be the online pastor for so long. Now you’re the lead pastor, you’re just doing what you’ve done in that experience and you’re just taking it as the lead pastor. So your focus isn’t necessarily cheeks in the seats on the weekend at the main campus, it’s about how we keep growing our microsites. Is that accurate?

Yeah, we’ve made a conscious switch, and this is a bigger conversation probably, but from like 2020 on, it was pretty obvious that the American church had been pretty bad at discipleship, just in general. Pick a topic, we didn’t do great on any of the topics. And so we made a conscious shift from figuring out ways to get seekers to come to our building, to how do we spiritually outfit the people that are in our building and send them out and focus on the, I’m going to use this buzzword, but we’re going to focus on the 167 rather than the one hour, and we’ve gotten our entire staff and congregation on board with that and it’s been incredible to watch. So now instead of counting baptisms, we’re counting baptizers. And instead of counting like money that’s coming in, we’re counting how many givers per month, and so on and so on. And what that’s done has been this philosophical shift in our community, and in our congregation, where they realize that the actual mission field, the actual field, is their daily lives, whereas maybe the locker room is the church.

Where do you get your inspiration?

Well, our lead pastor for the last 19 years was a former college basketball coach, and so he and I speak a very similar language and are on the same wavelength. So marrying his innovative spirit, coming from the basketball world to the pastor world, and then what we’ve been able to accomplish online, I think that what you’re seeing with this spiritual outfitting is like a convergence of those two things.

That is very fascinating to me. I want to rewind just a little bit because I think when I hear Jason say this, and it made a lot of sense to me, you’re an online pastor or a guy who was doing online ministry, and now you’ve kind of taken what you’ve learned there and are moving that into more incarnation of ministry. And I see what you’re doing, and it does make a lot of sense. One of the things that I think a lot of us perceive, is that online ministry or church online is designed to be something that husband and wife and kids do in the living room of their house with the smart TV tuned into the weekend worship service being broadcast from the campus of their church. Right? Like the honest truth is, most churches are having a really, really difficult time getting over that hump. And we’ve had a lot of conversations on this podcast about what online ministry is, what church online really ought to look like. And in some ways, you’re doing that, but the one thing, the one piece that seems to be missing in so many different churches paradigm for church online is this incarnation community where people are actually together and you haven’t lost that in your priority with what you’re doing. I mean, you could feasibly take the content that you’re creating for the microsites and just deliver it all through YouTube, deliver it all through an app, deliver it all in some sort of virtual online experience. But it sounds like you really work hard to make sure that people are gathering, whether it’s a group of five or a group of 50, people are together incarnationally. Can you just kind of double click on that and kind of give us a little bit of insight as to what drives you to make sure that that’s a consistent part of the ministry that you’re doing?

Yeah, it still goes back to this philosophical shift. Because if we just put things out on YouTube or Facebook or whatever, I mean, that’s fine, we still do some of that, but for the most part, the focus there is vanity metrics. Like if I had a million people watch a video but nobody ever came to Christ or nobody learned anything about Jesus, then like, did I really actually accomplish something? So this philosophical shift for us really kind of forces us into focusing on keeping the main things, the main things. And one of those things has to be a community element, like we’re designed to be communal beings. God himself is a community, the Godhead of three and one. And so for us to just say, well, it’s fine if you just go watch by yourself and never talk to anyone and never ever meet up with anyone, I’m not sure that’s biblical. I’ll probably get crucified by other online pastors for saying that, but that’s okay. We have just made it very clear what we’re trying to accomplish, which is helping people find and follow Jesus. And we want to come alongside you in a relationship to make sure that happens, and I think the best way to do relationships is face to face, if not, then the best way is constantly being involved in the other person’s life via chat. But the worst way is just throwing some content out there and hoping people watch it.

I totally agree with that. I mean, because in these conversations with lots of online pastors…If you’re listening and you’re an online pastor, you know what we’re talking about. You’re wanting that engagement, but to what end, you can only have so deep of a conversation and relationship with somebody that you’ve never met before, face to face. I mean, you can have some of that, but I think there’s a point where you’re like, it just starts to fade off because, you know, you don’t get to see them and give them a hug or shake their hand man, or go have lunch together. I think that’s what you’re saying, and that’s where life happens. And you guys have created this cool model where it’s just reproducible over and over again, and you’re not really bound by miles, right? You could do it all the way around the other side of the world, it doesn’t really matter, you just have that’s the community that that that they’re connected to.

And like even the one across the world, so take the Kenya Microsite, for example. Our team, the guy’s name is Peter, that’s the leader of it. And our team is in constant communication with Peter, and I love Peter like a brother. It’s amazing because I’ve known him for years now and I’ve never met him in person, but I would tell you that my relationship with him online is nowhere near his relationship with the microsite congregants. And so that’s where this balance comes into play, online relationships are very real relationships, but they still don’t replace in-person relationships. So our goal is to present the Gospel through online means, but then also facilitate actual relationships through those tools that we give them.

Tyler, let me ask you another question here. I’m just, I’m totally fascinated by this. So you have this community of people, First Capital Church, who for the most part are traditional brick and mortar church people and you have a sizable congregation that gathers for weekend worship. And then you have this totally separate thing with the microsites and the ministry and the mission there, you know, it’s not purely [inaudible] Organic Church where it’s just multiplying and replicating and nobody’s really managing it. But it’s also not, these are not long…How do I put this without being degrading? I don’t mean to be. They are not, right now they probably couldn’t exist outside the leadership and the guidance that First Capital is giving them because of your leadership structure and because of the way that you’re creating content. So they’re not self-sustaining churches to some degree, maybe they could be, but they’re not. So how do you work with the tension there, between, hey, we’ve got kind of this traditional brick and mortar, church experience that we’re doing, we also have this microsite thing, how do those two communities function together kind of under the same roof with the leader of the church, without having divided intentions or divided vision there? I’m just curious as to what kind of struggles you’re having, or what kind of wins you’re finding in that.

Yeah. So keep in mind, we’re seven years into this, so it’s not like we started a couple of weeks ago. So if you’d asked me this question five years ago, I would have a different answer than I do now, because there were a lot of struggles at the beginning. But first of all, nobody understood it. The very first time that I pitched microsites to our eldership, setting the budget, it was literally the first thing that got cut from the next year’s budget, because they didn’t get it. And I basically went to them and said, I will buy the equipment out of my own pocket if you just let us try one of these things. But what you cannot argue with is life change, like, under any circumstance, things you can’t argue with are I was here, then I met Jesus through this tool, and now I’m here. And we just started seeing story after story after story of people coming to the Lord through these microsites. And every time we would have one of those stories, we’d share it with our brick and mortar congregation, and finally, you’d start seeing like there’s a light bulb going off there, and there’s a light bulb going off there, until finally, they were like, man, not only are we doing this cool thing, but they’re part of us.

And so now we’ve, I know a lot of people liked the word phygital a long time ago, and now it’s kind of like not a cool word, but we really have truly become a Phygital church. We’ve got an online staff and an in-person staff that are merged together, working in community with each other, creating these hyper online in-person experiences constantly. And so everything that we do has become truly phygital, but it took a lot of years of confusion, and a lot of years of what the heck are we doing? But the biggest thing I can tell you is that you can’t argue with life change, and that’s what we’ve seen the Lord do through this, and so that’s that’s how they’ve become sustainable for us. And obviously, the longer that people are in discipleship-type communities together, the more generous they become and things like that. So we’re getting revenue coming in from these microsites, we’re getting, even in like jails and prisons, we’re getting multiple checks a week from inmates who think that they’re part of us because they are, and so they’re giving their ties and offerings to the big fund.


No offense to Jeff Reed, but I’ve never thought Phygital was a very cool word. So I’m just going on record for saying, I never really thought that was very cool.

But you guys are doing it.

Jeff’s the first person I ever heard that word, and I was on the zoom call for the 2016, it was this Church IT Network Conference, 2016 leadership team, and this the first time I’d ever heard that. So I think Jeff coined that word on that Zoom call, because like he said it, and then he was like, I think I just made up a new word. But no offense to Jeff.

He’s got a lot of leverage out of it, that’s for sure.

I still like that word.

Well, I like it, because you guys are actually doing it. But I think what a lot of churches want to do, you’re doing it. And like Bart said earlier, I think people think, oh the online guy is the guy that’s just connecting with the family sitting in their family room watching church because they didn’t want to go to church today, they’re just going to watch church, you know? And that’s nothing wrong with that, but you guys have momentum, you have movement.

So the outside of the microsites, just to your point, Jason, our online strategy from just an online ministry standpoint, I would say probably online weekend service is like lowest on the totem pole for us. It’s right there with communications, and I’m going to offend everybody, I know I am, it’s right up there at the same level as like announcement that needs to be posted in the church group. And we have really just focused on relational online ministry, so finding hurting people and then providing them with relationships and tools to speak into those hurting areas, and that’s been our primary focus for the online campus. So we really don’t put a whole lot of effort into our streaming, we want it to be quality, but it’s not our Super Bowl.

Yeah. So when you were going through the COVID season, initially, where everything kind of, you know, everything went online where you weren’t able to meet physically in person, are there any specific things that you guys learned or experienced in that process that has actually elevated what you’re doing with microsites and what you’re doing in that space?

Out of COVID, I would say that we learned the shorter the service time, probably the better, specifically in terms of content. But to be honest, guys, and I don’t want to sound at all conceited or arrogant in any way, like, we were already doing this for a while before COVID, so nothing really changed that much, except we had a different background behind us when we were giving messages and things like that. But we still focused on relational ministry, we still focused on helping people be discipled online, and we just happened to have a lot more volunteers at our disposal when COVID hit because everybody was kind of at home. So it was like a strategy already in place, and then we got to unleash a bunch of people that had a bunch of time on their hands.

Hey, we only have a few minutes left, and there is something I want to kind of back up and double click on. As you were sharing a little bit about the metrics, things that you’re counting, and what you’re measuring these days. Since you and I had a conversation about this a few weeks ago, my brain has been spinning, I’ve been reading Will Mancini’s new book, Future Church, which I recommended to you. I recommended it to Jason, and I recommended it to a lot of people because I think it really is, there’s a paradigm shift in there, and you guys, I think, are already moving in the direction that he’s now saying churches need to be thinking and moving towards. But you talk about counting baptizers and not just baptism, counting givers and not just the offering. What are some of the other metrics that you have kind of shifted in, and what has what ultimately have you seen as a result in shifting some of those metrics?

Yeah, so the shift happened in December of 2021. It goes back to my online world days, so this shift had happened in the online space for us since 2017. And then in December of 2021, right before the transition happened for lead pastor, we started shifting metrics then so that we would have a benchmark, and then we have four months of metrics now because it’s April. So we have identified, we call them the big five, it’s five things that we want a disciple to be doing, it’s generosity, being in community, having a good prayer life, serving, and then right thinking about God. And so those are the areas that we’ve identified metrics that if we’re outfitting people to use them in their daily lives, here are the areas we want to want to track. So on that same line, we have things like baptisms and baptizers, but also, every time there’s a baptism, we want 1 to 1, them to be paired with a next step guide. And that’s literally a person who has been trained and given six weeks of digital resources to walk beside a new believer for six weeks to steady them as they go. So we don’t focus on putting them in a class or anything like that, it’s very, very much individual relationships. And then by the end of that, we hope that that relationship has blossomed and it goes beyond six weeks, we just outfit them with six weeks of material.

We also count the number of givers, and that includes any opportunity to be generous. So that could be like a special offering that’s given, we adopted a school this year, and so that could be if somebody gives towards the school because we want people to take that next step to become generous, not necessarily just to fill up the offering numbers. We also count connection opportunities, so that could be a life group, but that also could be like a one-off grief share class, or it could be like we have nights of worship, so people that come to these nights of worship or prayer experiences or whatever that is. We also developed an app called One Step Closer, that every day sends a push notification and basically gamify discipleship to where they get three challenges to do things that Jesus did, live like Jesus, and think the way that Jesus thinks. And the three different challenges every day, so we want people to not only download that app, but we want them to use it every day. So those are the types of metrics that we have on one side of our spreadsheet, by the end of that, we add all of those numbers together and get an average per month. And then we multiply that average by 0.75 to be as conservative as we possibly can be, so we have a number of people that we believe we’ve outfitted on the Big Five.

Then on the flip side of that, we count our total reach. So that would be online, attendance, microsite attendance, and in-person attendance. Then we take the outfitting number and we divide it by the reach number, and by the end of each month, we have a percentage of people that we’ve outfitted. So over a long span of time, we can hopefully consistently go up on the percentage of people outfitted and then also the reach and also the number of people outfitted. But if any of the three dip, then we can go back in and specifically pinpoint the areas where we’re struggling in. So over time, we’ve got this kind of picture of the health of our church, of how healthy are we in creating disciples that are living it out in their daily lives? So far we’ve seen attendance increase, giving increase, and the number of baptisms increase exponentially since we started this, but those are the byproducts of focusing on the main thing. So we’re still early on in this hypothesis, we’re still early on in this experiment, but so far we’re seeing pretty amazing results, especially in the walking beside of people category, these next step guides, I think last month we had 18 total baptisms and I think we had 18 next step guides, which was like a praise God moment.

Well, I love those because when somebody makes that decision, then you’re equipping them to feed themselves.

Yeah, that’s the goal. Yeah, and then they reproduce and they become a next step guide, and so on and so on.

Yeah. You’re flipping the table with lead measures and lag measures, right? So we’ve always kind of used this metric that if we get more people in the building, we can get more people in groups, then we can disciple more people. And you’re flipping that around and basically saying, if we disciple more people, then we’ll probably have more people show up on Sundays, and we’ll have more people get in groups, and we’ll have more people giving. I hate to say it, Tyler, but I think you’re on to something here.

Well, it sounds like you spend a minute or two thinking about this, too.

Yeah, we’ve been thinking for a while on this one. One last thing about the lead measures and LAG measures, what’s been really interesting is that everything I just said, I would consider a lag measure because quarterly now we’re meeting as an entire or staff organization, both online and person, and we are coming up with the lead measures. So here’s what the lag measures show us that we need to improve on, so in the next quarter, here are the lead measures we believe will help us improve those lag measures, and that’s how we can continue to increase this percentage. So instead of like a big year or five-year plan, we are literally working quarter to quarter right now, and that helps everyone feel like they’re on the same page, moving towards one specific vision.

Yeah. We did the same thing similar here at Missional Marketing where we have our WIG, wildly important goal, and we have our lead measures, all that stuff, but it changed our business, it helped us stay really focused. And, you know, kudos, thank you, Lord, working through you, you’ve done that at your church where you’ve got a really focused mission and it’s so cool to hear these numbers. I can’t wait to, you need to write a book about this, that is your next…

I don’t know about all that, we’re doing so many creative content creation pieces that I don’t know if I have time to do anything else.

Yeah, it’s funny, guys that are doing it, guys that are in the middle of it, the ones that never have to write a book.

They don’t have time. They don’t have time.

When it all slows down and you have time to write a book, it’s time to try something new, right?

Right. We probably need to land this, but I do have a question. What do you think God’s leading you to for the next few years? Do you feel this is exactly where we’re going to go and you’re going to play the course here, or are there other things that you’re thinking about?

Yeah, right now I think that we’re going to hold on steady to this course that he has us on since it’s so kind of new. I’m excited to have like a year’s worth of data to really figure out, like, does this spiritual outfitting thing work? What needs to be tweaked to make it work? Because honestly, we’re in a unique situation to where if we could get, like 34% was our highest so far, so like, what if it was 60? We’re in a town of 3500 people, if we get 60% of our people that we believe are taking a step closer to Jesus every day, we could legitimately change our community. And so that’s what I’m excited about, to continue working this process, continue to allow the Holy Spirit to literally move in individual people’s lives and help come alongside of them and let them pursue those passions. I think we could see a whole new Harrison County, Indiana and beyond in the next ten years.

Oh, I tell you what, I would love, I would love, and you need to say yes right now on the spot, come back a year from now on the podcast, because I want to hear the results of what’s been going on. I can’t wait to see that data.


I can send a meeting invite. If I send you a meeting invite and you say yes, I’ll hold you to it. Okay? All right. All right. Hey, Tyler, this has been totally fascinating. I can’t imagine that there aren’t some people listening or watching this that don’t have some more questions that are going to want to just pick your brain a little bit. You have limited time, we appreciate you giving us the time that you did today. If people do have questions, they want to follow up, of they’re curious about anything that you’ve talked about here today, what’s the best way for them to connect with you or to find out more about what you’re doing?

Yeah, through Facebook would be a good one. Just look up my name. Or my email, it’s So that’s pretty easy to remember. And then, yeah, and then I help run a Facebook group called Online Plus Digital Church Leaders, and so it’s a fairly large group, you can always find me in there as well.

It’s a big group, but you’re in there somewhere. Okay, good stuff. Tyler, on behalf of the Missional Marketing team and all of our friends out there, we really appreciate you taking the time with us today. Thanks for being on the show.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

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