Incorporate Empathy Into Church Marketing | Amy Chaney

Jason Hamrock: Well. Amy, welcome to the podcast. Glad to have you on today. How are you?

Amy Chaney: I’m doing great. I’m glad to be here. Thanks for asking me to join you.

Jason Hamrock: Yeah, and you are coming to us from lovely Massachusetts in September. You’re about to embark on a beautiful part of your year. Yes, that’s correct.

Amy Chaney: Yes, we have one month out of twelve that’s really magical here in New England, and it’s October. It’s over too quickly, but it’s worth all the pumpkin spice and leaf-peeping magic, it’s worth it.

Jason Hamrock: You know, this is a tangent, but Starbucks, you know, they release all this pumpkin. You know, it’s the fall, they want to get sales going on. But here in Phoenix, when it’s still well over 100 degrees and you’re seeing all that, it’s just not magical for us, just yet.

Amy Chaney: And I actually will not participate in any of that nonsense until October 1st. It has to remain a short season, otherwise, you risk like really overdoing it. So yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I’m supportive of that.

Jason Hamrock: Well, so glad to have you on the show, excited about our conversation today. For our audience, give us a little background as to who you are and what you’re doing these days, and we’ll just dive in because I’m excited about the topic we’re going to get into.

Amy Chaney: Yeah. So I’m allergic to boredom, so I’ve done a little bit of a lot of things, but really the common throughline through all of the things that I’ve done in my career and in my education has been communications. I started off as an artist, I got my MFA in painting, which like now years later, I realized was me falling in love with figuring out new ways to say pretty typical things. And I use those skills now, even though I’m not a painter really anymore. But I serve now full time at a Christian school in Lexington, Massachusetts, Lexington Christian Academy. Not the one in Kentucky, the one in Massachusetts, we get confused all the time. And I work as an administrator here, and one of my responsibilities is running the marketing for our school. And it’s a 6 through 12 program here that’s faith-based, and I’ve been here 12 years.

Amy Chaney: But in addition to that, I also work for Kem Meyer and company, and Kem Meyer is one of my heroes. I had her quotes from her book Hanging in my office when I worked for a church a few years ago, and that was before I’d ever met her. And so when I got to meet Kem, and then eventually began to work with her, it was like quite a thing, like a dream come true, so to speak. But Kem and I and our team, we work with a whole lot of different clients, many of them are churches though, and we are brand therapists. We help churches clarify who they are, define their messaging, really figure out how to communicate the good stuff that they’re doing more and get rid of all the other clutter that’s distracting from the ministry work that they’re doing. So that’s super fun work.

Amy Chaney: I did a stint working for a church as well. I worked for a church for about six years as a communications director, engagement director, and discipleship director. I’ve preached, I’ve done youth group, so if you’re working for a church and listening here, I probably did what you do now at some point, and it is truly a privilege and pleasure to help folks spreading the Gospel just do their work a little bit better, with what Kem and I do together.

Jason Hamrock: Okay. Yeah, I’m really excited to talk about how you help churches in these things, but something caught my attention when you said you’re trying to help churches, you know, figure out their brand and figure out their identity and be able to articulate that. Why is it that churches struggle with identifying that, their brand, and having too much clutter?

Amy Chaney: I think a few reasons. One of them is an inherent Christian humility, I think churches are bad at marketing because Christians believe bragging is bad. And people associate like branding and marketing with being braggadocious and over the top and selling people things subversively. And I think it’s time to set that aside, I think marketing has developed well beyond Super Bowl commercials at this point. Marketing is simply telling your story. Your brand is nothing more than your reputation. It is the shortcut to getting people in your doors to buy your product if you’re a business. I think we’ve evolved past thinking of marketing as just like bragging about who you are. And so I think that Christian humility is one of the reasons that churches struggle with it. I also think churches, one of the beautiful things about the Christian faith is that there is this unity across different congregations. And I think that especially now, especially in the kind of cultural moment that we find ourselves in, the best churches that we work with are trying to find more of that unity and are actually steering themselves away from figuring out their differentiators, which is really a key component of marketing, is what makes you different. Why would someone come to your church instead of the church down the street, and the best communities that I found out there are like, we don’t care if they go to the church down the street, but we also need people to come to our church and like donate and help us pay our bills. And balancing that, I think in the context of really good ministry, it can be really tricky. So I think there’s a lot of fear, I guess, surrounding branding and marketing in the church space, and Kem and I get to dispel that a little bit.

Jason Hamrock: Yeah, I’m with you. Oh, because I think churches get in their own way, and what they don’t realize is everybody, if they know you, has an opinion about you. And so the question is going to be, what are those people outside your church thinking about you and how do you control that narrative? What is it you’re doing that’s going to build the brand that you want to build? So how do you lead churches through that exercise?

Amy Chaney: Well, I think one of the things we try to remind every church is, is that essentially what they’re marketing, what their message is, is the Gospel. And that is, on some level, the same as the church down the street if they’re doing a good job, too. The thing is that every good story needs to be told in several different ways. If you’ve ever had a favorite family fairy tale that your crazy aunt says every time you gather around the table for Thanksgiving, you know, it’s the same story, but it’s told over and over and over again, and it’s told in slightly different ways, and then eventually someone else starts telling the story. That’s key to how human beings tell stories, is that sort of like being able to tell the same story from various different perspectives. And that is what churches are doing as individual congregations, every person has a unique set of needs, and every individual congregation can’t meet all, what is it, 7 to 8 billion people’s needs. But they can focus on a certain kind of cross-section of needs that are found in their community. And for that reason, because humanity is very diverse, there need to be different churches telling the gospel in different ways, expressing their faith in different ways, and engaging with their communities in different ways. And so their brand is really the, like I said before, kind of a shortcut. It is when you’re looking at kind of two churches in a similar neighborhood, your brand is what shortcuts people choosing to try yours first, it’s your reputation in the community, it’s the difference between being a church that’s known for like really spirit filled and expressive worship versus a church that’s known for all of these various kinds of service ministries or community service ministries. We need both, both are really biblical ways of honoring God. But you can kind of decide what needs you’re going to fulfill as a community, and then craft your brand from there, and that’s ultimately helpful for people finding their home.

Jason Hamrock: Oh, it’s huge.

Bart Blair: Can I ask just a follow-up question to that, though? So you’re working, we don’t need to get too deep into the weeds or we can, it just depends on how interesting you find the question or not. When you’re working with churches and say you have, you said a couple of things that I think are a little bit contradictory. So I want you to kind of help me figure this out. One, you said, I think I interpreted you saying that differentiation in and of itself is not as important maybe as we think that it is. But then conversely, you said, hey, we have two different churches in the same community that express themselves and communicate the Gospel differently. So there is obviously some benefit for differentiation, not for the purpose of competition, right, that’s the big difference. Coca-cola and Pepsi, they’re trying to differentiate because they’re trying to eat the other one alive, right, they want to take all of their customers. In the church world, our differentiation is really designed to make sure that we are effectively reaching the people that God has called us to reach in the community. When you’re walking churches through that process, whether you want to call it differentiation or whatever you want to call it, what do you do with them or how do you help them explore the community to do that community exegesis to determine who it is specifically that God is calling them to reach and then how to craft their message around that. Does that question make sense?

Amy Chaney: It absolutely does. And I think differentiation is essential, I think it’s really important. I think some church communities are afraid to really go there because they don’t want to say that they don’t do anything, every church wants to be everything to everybody. And they want to find unity with every other church because unity is like, there’s this sort of this resistance, I think, to really digging deep into what your church is doing really, really well, because they’re afraid of being the church that’s not doing this other thing over here. What if the preaching is like mediocre? What if the music is off-key? We don’t want to not do everything really well, and I think that’s dangerous, actually. So one of the things that we do when we walk with churches is we have a process where we create what we put, we have a copy written process to create a brand cue card. Which is like a resume for your church, and it talks about who you are, who you serve, how you do it, and what you do. And one of the really essential parts of this process is doing what’s basically like an empathy mapping process of the people that you’re serving, or sometimes the people that you wish you were serving. Because we also wind up working with lots of churches who have a congregation that’s aging out, and they’re not replenishing themselves. Or they’re in the midst of a healing from a really toxic or unhealthy season. Or there’s something there where they want to see their congregation change, actually. So an empathy map really walks through these questions of, you know, if you close your eyes and you imagine someone walking in your door, where do they sit? How do they feel? Where did they find you? Did they show up already a believer, or did they show up with no idea who Christ was or is? Are they sad? What are their needs? And you kind of like walk through and ask them these questions and they start to paint a picture of the people in their midst or the people that they’re trying to reach, and then that helps us focus in on what the most important things are doing are. A problem we see all the time with churches is that there is sort of like event and programming, they’re overperforming, they’re over-programmed, and they’re overdoing everything. There are too many events, they’re like shooting at every angle. Every time someone has a good idea, they say yes to it because they don’t want to say no to any kind of good idea. And we often talk about the value of sometimes you, yes, and sometimes you bless. And you can say yes to a really good idea, or you can bless someone in doing it on their own. And how do you kind of narrow in on the things that are going to matter the most to the people you describe when you close your eyes and you imagined the people God’s called you to serve. And that’s different than like, what is something that we can do better than the church down the street? That is a very different exercise than one that’s more competitive like that, that’s more of a spiritual searching exercise. So it tends to be more successful because God’s involved.

Jason Hamrock: I think it’s important that if you’re a communication director and, you know, you just start staring at those questions, who is it we’re actually trying to reach, and are we reaching them? And who’s sitting in our seats? And what are we about? And as a communication director, it’s not yours, the senior leadership is going to lead that, they’re going to be the ones that this is what we’re about. Your job as a comms director, and help me clarify this better, Amy, your job as a communication director is to understand what they’re wanting to do and reach and then make sure that we are articulating that. Or the other way around, you want to do this, but in reality, this is what you are doing, this is who you are reaching. You know, is that accurate? I mean, how do you help walk a comm director through that kind of exercise?

Amy Chaney: Yeah, but the communications director is ultimately the champion for the brand, they’re the protector of that person that they describe in that empathy mapping exercise. And we’ll often tell them, well, in our processes, we’ll give them…Because Kem and I are insistent upon, we’re not going to just give you like a description of your brand and then say, see you later, we’re big on walking people through the implementation of what that looks like because that’s the hard part. It’s very easy to talk about yourself and it’s really hard sometimes to show up in the way that you’ve promised yourself you’re going to show up. So the communications director’s job is to filter every single thing that your church is communicating through the filter of that person that you define as a team. That is something that you’ve searched your soul for, that you know God’s calling you to reach. That means that if you are a congregation in a…You know, we’ve worked with churches that are full of people who are like kind of disillusioned with religion, they’re skeptics by nature, they’re very heady. If you’re communicating either in your promotions or your sermons or in your space, this like really heavy, like, churchy language, and taking for granted that people want to go to a small group and know what discipleship is, and if you’re putting the pastor on a pedestal, I mean, even like stage height can really matter in how you communicate your priorities as a congregation, you’re not necessarily filtering your communication through the lens of someone who’s suspicious of you from day one.

We have other churches who are full of young families that are busy, and if you’re packing your calendar with a bunch of things that they need to get to, to add to their busy lives, you know, you’re kind of missing the point. You’re not filtering your communication through the lens of these, like, overwhelmed young families who don’t need another thing to attend, they need some equipment to survive the life that they’re already kind of treading water in. And that is something that often like, your pastoral staff will forget to do that because you’re so kind of in it, you’re a visionary as the lead pastor, you live and breathe all of this language and this whole kind of church culture, it’s a communication director’s job to hold the pastor accountable to speak to the people they’ve agreed to speak to.

Jason Hamrock: Yeah.

Amy Chaney: What type of [inaudible] gets communicated?

Jason Hamrock: Let’s talk about, you have a unique role because you’re in a school and you get to interact with kids and parents all day long, those same kids and parents that churches are trying to reach, right?

Amy Chaney: Right.

Jason Hamrock: So talk to us a little bit about what are families struggling with, and how can churches, how can we learn from you on how to connect with families?

Amy Chaney: Yeah. We, here at our school, we’re a grade six through 12 school, and so middle school and high school age kids who just walked through a pandemic, and it’s been a wild ride these last few years. But one of the things we reflect on as educators is that we have this opportunity, and we’re a Christian school, so we have this opportunity also to communicate the Gospel in the context of students learning five days a week, nine months a year, every single day for eight hours. And we often will say, what would the youth pastor down the street give to have eight hours, five days a week to communicate? It might overwhelm them as well.

Jason Hamrock: Yeah, a little bit.

We have this unique opportunity, right? Where when you’re working in a church, I mean, whether it’s adults or kids, whatever it is, you get like an hour a week if you’re lucky. And for most people, regular church attendance is once a month even now, it’s really changed. You have such a limited window to communicate, and so there’s this sort of like frantic pressure, whereas where we are, we can kind of slow down and we can take things a little bit, we can scaffold things a little bit, differently, and that’s a privilege. But one of the things that we’ve really noticed, especially as a Christian school, is we serve a lot of Christian families who five years ago, our kids came into school, they knew what chapel was going to look like, they knew how to worship, you know, they were going to church every week, they attended youth group every Wednesday, and that stopped for two solid years and has picked up really only in a limited way, the momentum was lost. And so as I speak to parents, in addition to marketing, I’m also in charge of the student life and sort of the social-emotional threads of things in our school. And as I talked to parents, they’re feeling alone in raising their kids in the faith. Where they had all of this kind of built-in support that the village has thinned out, right, it takes a village to raise a child and the village has thinned out. Youth ministries, even like years of playgroups with younger kids, were lost. And these, every parent’s lost all the time, no parents know what they’re really doing, right? But especially now, since that village is so much smaller, parents are looking around, just desperate for equipment, simple equipment. How do I pray with my kids around the dinner table? Because none of us know how to do it. The things that we took for granted, as you and I were growing up, are just really different for families today. And they’re competing with things like TikTok and social media that take attention in a really different way, and we’ve lost momentum a little bit on the development of young people, and parents need equipment, they need help. So churches are in a really unique position to provide that, and I think we ought to be folding that into our brands, probably as churches, a little bit more directly.

Jason Hamrock: Yeah, I often, often? One hundred percent of the time, we get to work with a lot of churches, so I always say that content is king in this. You are generating content, church, but you’ve got to continue to be generating content that is needed, you know, and making it available for people. And so the churches that do that effectively, I think, they’ve got a leg up on connecting with those families, those unchurched and de-church families, or even the church families, it doesn’t really matter, any family, they’re all struggling, it doesn’t matter what that looks like. And so you’ve got to be really good at generating content, in my opinion.

Amy Chaney: Yeah, but not just any content, you have to be really good at generating content that solves a problem.

Jason Hamrock: That’s right.

Amy Chaney: And every piece of content has to be the full story, which is not what churches are used to doing as they push out content. You’re used to pushing out just like a little sliver of the Bible, which is just a tiny little piece. That’s what Sunday is, it’s just like a little tiny piece. But parents, as they’re scrolling through, if they see something that doesn’t immediately connect to their biggest problem, which is how do I raise these kids to know and love Jesus and keep them safe, if they don’t see that immediate connection, you know, they are too overwhelmed to draw that connection themselves. So I think churches should be reaching out to every educator in their congregations and talking to them about how to deliver. instruction. How do you scaffold help? How do you scaffold connections between this idea and this idea? That’s what teachers do, and I think that needs to come into church content a heck of a lot more in these next couple of years as we all together recover.

Jason Hamrock: Yeah, and it’s changed so much since the pandemic. You know, I mean, some states, obviously, are way ahead than other states and all that kind of stuff, but I think just the kids coming out of that, it’s not like they recovered quickly and so they’re still recovering.

Amy Chaney: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean…No, go ahead.

Bart Blair: I’m going to get a little bit more practical on this particular topic, and I’m going to get practical with a really weird scenario. Tonight, in the middle of the night, you wake up and there’s an angel in your room, and the angel says, Amy, you’re no longer going to work with Kem and you’re no longer working at the school, you’re going to be at church communications director Okay? Knowing everything that you know, with all the things that you’ve just shared, now you find yourself literally sitting in the seat of a communications director in a church. How are you going to lead in your church, lead up to the leadership in your church, to actually do what you just said? Because what you said is important, and I think anyone and everyone who’s listening to it, they’re all going to agree with you. But being able to actually put legs to that, is going to be much more complicated than just acknowledging that it’s something that needs to happen.

Amy Chaney: Yeah, I would become as repetitious as possible about if-then statements. Every time my pastor opened his mouth, I’d say, if that, then what? If that, then what? If-then statements are, that’s like a math concept, but that is what people need, they need to see then what? So what? Why does this matter? How is this actually going to help my life? And I think as a communications director, structuring every message as an if-then statement, as something that literally connects to a solution to a problem has to be every sermon, it has to be every promotion, it has to be every social media post, it has to be every host spot from the stage. If you come to this women’s retreat, then you will make two new friends and we’re all lonely, and so we can use some more friends. If you bring a dish to the potluck, then we will give you free child care while you get some just time with other grownups. If you hold a baby in the nursery and help serve the church, then you are giving the gift to young parents to go and be able to listen to the message in the service, and possibly disrupting generational things that have been holding this family back for years and years and years. You have to give purpose to every action, it’s not just about showing up, it’s about what you’re going to get from it. And a lot of church people will bemoan that, like you show up for others, not for yourself. But not all of those if-then statements were self-centered, holding a baby in the nursery is not a self-centered if-then statement, but you point to the purpose behind that. I think any communication that doesn’t point in that direction is just white noise, that’s clutter.

Jason Hamrock: I love that. And if you invite your friend to bring them to church, then you’ll see God do some amazing things.

Amy Chaney: That’s right. That’s right. If-then statements.

Jason Hamrock: If-then, love that.

Bart Blair: Just so you know, I’m satisfied with that answer, so we can move. Jason, do you want to move on? I was satisfied by that answer.

Jason Hamrock: Amy If that happens, let me know.

Bart Blair: The angel? Yeah.

Jason Hamrock: Okay, let’s kind of, we have a couple more things and we’re running out of time. I’m kind of curious about the obstacles, those common obstacles that churches face. You know, go through that list, you put together a few ideas there.

Amy Chaney: Yeah. I think the most common obstacle that I encounter with church staff, I mean, especially communication specialists but I think anyone can fall victim to this is over overperformance and burnout. I think that weirdly, we see a bunch of unhappy people, you know, church has become this hospital for sad people these last few years, there’s been a lot of struggle. And we’re all these like fantastic Marthas, we’re all these really helpful people just like, oh, well, we’ll throw a celebration over here and we’ll focus on the growth and goodness going over here, and then there’ll be an opportunity to serve over here, and there’ll be a party this time and a celebration this time, and all this group and that group. And I often will say to churches, or to humans in my life, because I think this is a human problem, make some space and then resist, don’t fill it. Make some space and don’t fill it. What happens if you do fewer things and wait for people to tell you what their needs are, so then you can be there to meet those needs? Not with a bunch of noise or a bunch of things that only kind of half get there that are going to wind up disappointing people, but clear some space for the people around you to tell you what they need and then meet that need. First of all, you’ll be less burnt out, but you’ll also fail less. Not just because you’re doing less, but because you’ll actually get that input that you need to actually be more effective.

Bart Blair: Yeah, I just, I’m going to share just a personal little story as it relates to that because I think there’s somebody watching or listening to this podcast that will be able to relate to my story and what you just said. And my first ministry role was as a worship pastor and creative director in a church. I’ve never actually been a communications director at a church. I was worship pastor, creative director, and I had I had a season of burnout. I didn’t realize what it was when it was happening, reflecting on it years later, I realized that I had hit a wall. But I remember one season in our early married life with my wife. We had three neighbors that had three tragedies. We had a son that a lady whose son attempted suicide. We had a lady whose husband passed away and we had a family whose son had a tumor on his brain. And I remember my wife looking at me one day when we got in our car on our way to the church building for yet one more event that the church was doing. And she looked at me with tears in her eyes and said, I’m so sick and tired of going to church. We don’t have time to be church for the people right here in our neighborhood.

Bart Blair: Yeah, it was an incredibly convicting moment for me as a church leader who was actually one of the people responsible for so much of that programing. I didn’t realize what it was doing to my soul. I didn’t realize what it was doing to my life. I didn’t realize what it was doing to my wife and I. And until that moment, I didn’t realize how much it was separating me from where God had put me, the neighbors God had given me, and the opportunity that I had to actually be Jesus incarnate with skin on with those people right there in my own neighborhood. So we have worked really diligently as a family, as a couple, as a family since then to not over program ourselves. And even as a church leader, I’ve been very, very self conscious about that. But as you said, that that was the first thing that came to my mind and I just thought I wanted to share that because it was such a personal, deep, life changing experience for us. If I can save somebody else from having to experience what we did or to just acknowledge where they are and realize that change needs to happen, it’s too easy to over program in the church.

Amy Chaney: Yeah, and over communication is a thing too. I think that communications directors, specialists, coordinators are. I mean, you get into that role because you’re good at filling space, you’re good at writing stuff, you’re good at saying stuff, you’re good at stepping on stage and giving a promotion or an announcement. You’re not good at leaving empty space. Probably. It’s hard to be good at both things. And so that’s a counterintuitive call, I think, to communications people to. To be slower to speak, actually. I also think kind of like a related obstacle that a lot of communications directors, especially tired ones, especially understaffed ones, bump up against is mis mis defining communications for promotion. And this is something that Cam has has communicated beautifully in her book and who has helped me really see this clearly, even as I reflect back on my time as a church communications director is. Communication sometimes is everything but the words. Communication is not always promotions. We talk about communications as being like the circulatory system. Of your heartbeat, your identity, why you exist. If your heart is like your brand, your heartbeat is who you are and your DNA as a church, your communications is what pumps that DNA into every other part of the church body, ministry, congregation.

Amy Chaney: And a body can live without promotions. That’s external stuff. But a body can’t live without pumping that that heartbeat. Through the rest of the body. So church communications actually isn’t so much, and even church marketing isn’t so much telling people where to park for the Easter service. Church communications is helping people see themselves in this larger organism that’s doing holy stuff, that is. Part of Christ that is Christ literal body. And then in your special, unique kind of way, communications is sometimes everything other than the words. It’s how you set up the space. It’s whether there are empty seats at the table ready to be filled. It’s whether they’re space. So I think communications folks in churches are making a huge mistake. Their mis communicating, they’re tone deaf when they’re over communicating over programing and just sort of like shouting information out that are like details about parking. And that’s why you have people show up saying, I never know what’s going on, even though you’ve sent 400 emails with all the details because they don’t need you to remind them where to park again. They need to they need to experience the reason they would ever want to show up in the first place. That’s church communication.

Jason Hamrock: Yeah. And how and how it and how it helps you in your family yourself. Right. And, you know, go back to the story brand guide, where you want to be the hero of your own story. The church is there to guide you.

Amy Chaney: Right. If then statements. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Not how to statements. This is not how to statements are that’s just going to go in one ear and out the other if then statements. That’s a transformation story. Yeah. Even if the little one and that’s the whole point of what churches are doing is transformation. So, so I think like if that’s my thesis statement, if, then.

Jason Hamrock: If then there’s a book. There’s a book.

Amy Chaney: Amy, I guess.

Bart Blair: In your.

Jason Hamrock: Spare time because you know, you hate boredom.

Bart Blair: We are. We are. We are at the end of our time. That’s actually a great place, I think, for us to land. But I do want to give you, Amy, a parting shot, if there’s any one last thing one last nugget other than if, then that you want to leave with our listeners, our viewers, and anything else that you want to share.

Amy Chaney: Just encouragement. I think that there is there is no such thing as a communications director at a church who isn’t overwhelmed and burnt out to some degree. And number one, you’re not alone. And number two, there’s not no way out. I think that just take to heart this idea that maybe it’s the space you leave that communicates the most depth. And that doesn’t mean stop showing up to work, by the way. That just means being a little bit more careful about what space you’re filling and what space you’re leaving open for God to do some work in, maybe through other people, but that it can get better. It’s not just a terrible job. It is a great job and it is an important job. And it is in some ways one of the most essential jobs in in the church. And there are ways to make it. Work if you’re tired. There are ways.

Bart Blair: There’s no doubt it’s complex. There’s no doubt that it’s complex. And it’s not the same in any two churches. And that’s one of the things that makes it a very unique role in the local church. You know, a guy who serves in student ministry or a gal who is a children’s ministry director, a lot of times you can move from one church and one environment to another. And, you know, a significant percentage of what you’re doing is transferable in terms of the way that you’re reaching people and the way you’re discipling people. But every communications is really it’s so deeply tied to the brand of the church, the ethos of the church, the culture and the values of the church. And in every different environment, it takes on a different shape and it requires a different level. Some of those some of the skill sets are obviously basic skill sets, but then there’s also some some nuance there that is has to be adaptable from from context to context. So it isn’t it isn’t easy. And we we love the communications directors that we get to work with. They’re all different. I’ve six Zoom calls today with six different communications directors, six completely different churches with six completely different sets of needs and challenges to help them overcome. So what I love about what I get to do, I know Jason feels the same way and and I’m sure that you do as well. And speaking of which, you do get a chance to work with a lot of churches. If some of our listeners want to connect with you, if they want to find out more about what you and the team at Kim and Company do, how can they how can they find you?

Amy Chaney: We would love to invite them to find us on our website at WW Lukemire slash fast pass and you make it onto a priority list that we’ll get a phone call from us and maybe some some good advice along the way, but we would love to meet people and it’s Kem.

Jason Hamrock: Kem Yeah.

Amy Chaney: Meyer Me.

Bart Blair: Why are we willing to that in the show notes. Yeah, that’s awesome. Amy, thanks so much for joining us on the podcast today. It’s been great to get to know you better and just appreciate all your insights. I’m confident that our listeners, our viewers have learned something today that they can put to practice this week.

Amy Chaney: Thank you. Thanks for having me. This was fun.