How To Use Storytelling In Your Church | Rob James

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Rob James of Doxology Bible Church shares the importance and impact of telling good story to grow your church body and reach people for Jesus

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Podcast Transcription


Jason Hamrock: [00:00:06] Well, hey, Rob, welcome to the show. How are you doing today?

Rob James: [00:00:11] I am doing great. Given the heat and the craziness of Texas, I’m doing great.

Jason Hamrock: [00:00:15] Yeah, we’re finishing August here for all our viewers, and heading into September. But for some of us, like I’m in Phoenix and Rob’s in Texas, he’ll explain where he is, so is Bart, it’s still hot, But hey, you know, we’re going to be turning the corner real soon. I’m excited for the fall. But, hey, so glad to have you on the show. I’m really, really excited about our conversation today. This is going to benefit a lot of churches. I know this because I talk to churches all the time about what we’re going to talk about. Before we get into our topic of the conversation, why don’t you give us a little background on who you are, what church you’re with, and just tell us a little bit about your story?

Rob James: [00:00:56] Sure. My name is Rob James. I am the Ministery Storyteller here at Doxology Church in Fort Worth, Texas.

Jason Hamrock: [00:01:07] Ministry Storyteller.

Rob James: [00:01:10] I know, it’s a real thing.

Jason Hamrock: [00:01:11] How did that happen?

Rob James: [00:01:13] By accident, really. Interestingly, I actually had applied for a production arts position here, and the more I was talking to our creative director about my background in literature, writing, and literary storytelling, I homeschooled my kids forever, and that’s a natural component, especially when they’re young. And we just started talking about spinning stories and, you know, what are some of the things that you see on social media and with other churches? And it became clear that I didn’t really have the background for production at all, and I did have enough background in storytelling and what makes a good story and why it’s so important, especially in the Christian ministry, that it really just sort of became a thing on its own. And we created a position, and here I am.

Jason Hamrock: [00:02:03] Here you are. Okay, all right, let’s dive into this. Because I think, and this again, I have talks with churches all the time, and I’m always telling them stories, stories, stories, stories of what God is doing in the people in your church. And you should have an abundant amount of stories because if you’re an active, growing church and God’s in it, lives are being changed, right? So that’s just a natural conversation. It’s like, yeah, yeah, we agree, Jason. And they’re going, how do we capture these stories? You know? So I’d love to hear from you, teach us, how you are doing your job, and then we’ll we’ll pivot to actually, you know, the outcome and what you do with those stories. But just tell us how do you…What’s the formula?

Rob James: [00:02:47] Yeah. Well, so you understand there really is no formula, that’s the secret. It really is probably the most difficult thing, I think, in ministry as a business, how do you measure return on investment in telling a story? How can I prove that I’m changing hearts and minds or leading someone closer to Christ by telling a story? And that’s been, I think, the biggest hurdle for us to overcome. But the way I do it is I try to take traditional stories that we would normally tell. And so when I first started, I would be back in the studio recording a testimonial, okay, typical church storytelling. And I would talk to somebody for 45 minutes knowing that I had 2.5 minutes max to tell this rich, amazing story about somebody’s life. And I would just sit there loving good books thinking, this is crazy, we just tossed the whole story on the floor, right, for that. 2.5 minutes in production that we have on Sunday. What are we doing here? So I tried to, my question was a little bit nontraditional and it was now how do we take the real story and then get that shared out to other people? So things that we do now, not necessarily that a church podcast is not traditional, but I think the way we use it is a little bit different. So I try to take those things and use them on social, when I say things, the leftovers, right to those stories on social media, in what we call vision stories, I try to use those bigger stories then in formats like podcasts and so on.

Jason Hamrock: [00:04:35] Okay. Tell me a little bit about how you’re actually capturing, how does Doxology Bible Church work with the ministries to be able to actually know who has a story to tell.

Rob James: [00:04:48] Yeah, you have to know people. So I came here when I first applied for this position, I had been at the church for a while as a member and then in community groups and so on, so I know who to ask for those stories. And then I know that I have the support of the ministry staff, pastors, and so on to help point me in the right direction. And then it’s really a matter of just talking to those people, just being, okay, it’s kind of a generational thing, just being okay to go shake hands, have a seat, grab some coffee. I heard this story, I heard something about something going on in your life, let’s just just talk about it. And then from there, I can tell, oh, this would be a great microblog, this would be a, we’ve got a good hour of content here, let’s go podcast. This is interesting, and it would be visual so we can go, you know, shorter form video for social media and so on.

Jason Hamrock: [00:05:46] Okay. So when you say you’re working with the ministries, do they understand the power of stories? Because I mean ministry people, they’re just so busy doing their job and programming and stuff, have you had to work with them to kind of get them to understand?

Rob James: [00:06:03] Yeah. So everyone knows stories are important, I think most people don’t really know why they’re important. Everyone can tell you there’s some scripture somewhere that says, make sure and go out, go forth, go into the nations, go into the neighborhood, and tell your story. But we don’t really know, and, so I’ve told my story. Now what? And it’s really been more of a slow play for me to go intentionally around to pastors, have a seat, and we talk a little bit, you know, about the fact that you know, people are broken and we’re kind of misfits and we don’t always belong. And there’s so much hesitation there to share that story that I really need that support from you and the ministries that you’re involved in to help remind people that you know, what you’re going through right now will help so many people who are struggling with the same thing, but maybe they have shame or guilt about what they’re going through and aren’t really willing to share yet. And that’s just enough of a needle, that support through ministry, that I can usually get enough contacts with people and we can go from there. But it does have to be intentional, it has to be consistent on a really regular basis, I’m sitting down with those pastors and having that discussion.

Jason Hamrock: [00:07:21] That’s key. Yeah, it’s consistent. It’s not like, well, once a year I ask them for a story. No, it’s you’re building a relationship with the ministries so you have consistency on gathering those, those what we call a lead, so you can do something with it.

Bart Blair: [00:07:37] Yeah. I think, you know, I’m going to make a generalization here, but I think by and large, most people in most churches, they come in knowing what their own brokenness is, what their own hurts and their hang-ups and their challenges are, and they sit in a seat on a Sunday morning and they sing the songs with the other people and they listen to the sermon with the other people, and they assume that their path in life is different than everybody else’s in the room.

Rob James: [00:08:04] Yeah, that’s right.

Bart Blair: [00:08:04] And when the church experience is all monologue, when it’s everything is coming from the platform, from the pastor, from the worship leader, the worship team, it doesn’t give people, I think, the permission to be as transparent as they need to be to get the help in the areas of life where a lot of times they need the help. And by being, like you’re using, it sounds like and I want to dive into this here shortly, I’ll let Jason sort of take the lead on where we go with that… But, you know, you’ve talked about blogs, you’ve talked about videos, you’ve talked about, you know, podcasting, you’re using multiple forms of media to distribute the stories that you’re telling. And so I think that when your audience is able to hear those stories on a consistent basis, number one, they hear that other people in the church struggle with some of the same things that I do. But secondly, I’m also recognizing that there actually solutions to my problems, either through a ministry in the church or just a deeper walk with Jesus, and that’s something that I can step into here in the context of this church. So I love that, I just wanted to kind of throw that sidebar in there just to to encourage you.

Rob James: [00:09:14] No, that’s great.

Jason Hamrock: [00:09:15] What I’ve often told churches is, you know, a pastor or worship leader gets on stage, they’re paid to talk to you about why you should do what you should do. But to me, there’s a little bit of hope in that. But when I hear, you know, another couple went through what we’re going through, or somebody went through the struggle I’m going through, and I see that there’s answers, there’s a lot more hope in that because I can see myself in that story. And that’s I think, in my opinion, that’s like the power of the story and that’s what Jesus is, it’s all about a relationship.

Rob James: [00:09:57] Yeah, that’s right.

Jason Hamrock: [00:09:58] Yeah.

Rob James: [00:09:59] Yeah. And that’s why, when I first tried to think through the approach, you know, again, there’s not a great template for how the storyteller role works in the church, other than the fact that we all sort of do it. But how to make this sort of an actual fundamental part of the church business, that was actually difficult because I couldn’t really find a good template for how that worked. And just knowing the way people work, especially, I will say, I understand churches in the Midwest, and I understand churches in Texas really well, and especially in Texas, there’s a facade a lot of times that churchgoers have. And that facade is really hard to penetrate, and the facade is I come into church and I’m here because I know my kids need to go to church and I need to be here and I’m coming in problem free, and I want to make sure everyone around me knows that I’m problem free. Well, getting those people to share in public on social media or in a podcast is incredibly difficult. And so I’ve tried to take the approach that, this is a long process, this is not I’m going to start, and three months later we have this fantastic sharing going on all around the church. I hope it happens, but I try to, what I call, micro-nudge people in that direction. If that’s just the tiniest little reminder, here’s why we’re sharing. And I do a lot of these stories on social media where there’s a story wrapped around a message. And the message is, here’s why we share. Here’s why you’re not more broken than someone else. Here’s why someone who is broken and is afraid to also accept that or share that needs to see that you’re broken. And this really is important, we are a church of broken people on purpose, and it’s so important for us to share and not be so clean, you know when we walk through the door.

Jason Hamrock: [00:11:56] So you said something, I really like that phrase, you are a micro-moving, you’re just constantly challenging, and you have to. And I love the fact that there’s a position and that Doxology has seen the value of storytelling, that they’ve actually put somebody in charge of it. Often it gets delegated to a comms team or maybe worship that they got to go find stories and there’s not a lot of attention to that. Yet, it is probably one of the most powerful things, would you agree to this, that it’s one of the most powerful things you can do as a church, is to let people relate to what other people are going through?

Rob James: [00:12:41] It’s everything to the church. I mean, that’s how important it is, and that’s how I think how little we understand about how important that really is. It’s everything, we don’t turn up discipleship or anything like that if everyone is, again, I use the word clean, just meaning I don’t have those problems, I don’t have that shame, I don’t have that guilt, or maybe I have so much shame I don’t want to share. But we don’t really get through to people on that next level without a story, that is just all there is to it.

Jason Hamrock: [00:13:12] Yeah.

Bart Blair: [00:13:13] Rob, can we talk a minute about Doxology, the church as a whole, and how the church came to a place where prioritizing storytelling came to the forefront? I mean, it warrants a staff position. You know, I think a lot of churches, number one, they’re asking the question, where do we get the stories? How do we use the stories? Where do we distribute the stories? And there’s a technical aspect of that. But from a philosophical standpoint, give us some framework for Doxology and how you believe that doxology came to a point of making this such a high priority.

Rob James: [00:13:46] Yeah, I mean, I think it’s really in our DNA, we’ve been around for a long time, since 1954. And really the church, our beginnings are in, we want to be in the front yard. We want this to be a portable, simple message, it’s open-handed, and we’re not going to shame you or be in your face or anything. And the way we conduct ourselves as a church, the way we put ourselves into the neighborhood and the community lends itself to a philosophy that storytelling makes sense. Not that we’ve ever really done that because nobody really does. But when it comes to somebody being open, in my case, our Communications and Creative Director Cameron, was open enough to say, you know what, this really is part of our DNA. Storytelling is part of our DNA, we need to do better and expand that sort of natural, important role that we have as Christians, let’s just make this position a thing and run with it. But it wouldn’t happen without the DNA of the church.

Jason Hamrock: [00:14:52] Yeah, you’re right, I think that’s got to start from the leadership on down, right? It’s just got to be integrated. You also said something that I want to kind of dive into, this is probably going to be really helpful for churches. I hope it is. But you said, hey, I just want to have a conversation, right? So maybe this is a really good tactic, so you meet somebody and you just want to have a conversation. Are you recording them in your studio, or do you go outside, you know, where do you go when you’re having conversations?

Rob James: [00:15:27] Yeah, I try to meet them, so this is what I think, being a stay-at-home dad for so long, like I did homeschool my kids. I really had to learn, it was not in my comfort zone, I had to learn how to meet people where they are. And that really is, I can’t really get through to my 14-year-old, for example, if I don’t play video games. So whatever bias we have about video games, that’s just kind of where he’s at, so I have to know how to do that. So with people, I think there’s a wisdom that comes with this kind of role, you have to understand people. You have to understand people of different generations, how to communicate with somebody that’s in high school versus how to communicate with somebody in the later stages of life. I have to know where to go, and that could be a coffee bar, that could be here at the church in the offices, that could be over the phone, that could be by text. I have to be open to just about anything, and that’s part of that pre-qualification I do when I talk to somebody initially.

Jason Hamrock: [00:16:28] Okay, so you have this pre-qualification meeting and you kind of used the visual, I’m a visual guy, of we just throw it all on the floor.

Rob James: [00:16:37] Yeah. Yeah, that’s right.

Jason Hamrock: [00:16:39] Like they’re just sometimes there may be more open than not but they’re just talking. And you’re going whoa you are then determining, oh this is going to be great for, you know, a minute and a half week in service, or this is going to be great for podcasts, or something in between. Have you figured out the different mediums where you’re going to push this content?

Rob James: [00:17:01] Yeah, I do. When I talk to somebody initially, I have to think a lot about where does this story have value, who does it have value for, and what ministry would this apply to. Who in the congregation is probably suffering through the same thing, in a case that it’s that deep? So I do that, I do a lot of that. And sometimes I feel like, should I be doing that? But of course, I should be, but I feel kind of bad like I’m a car salesman or something. And so I’m, you know, watching a really heartfelt testimonial or something, and I’m thinking, oh yeah, we could really use that as a podcast, oh, that would be a great short-form video I could chop that up into 25 different shorts. And so feel kind of bad, but you do have to do that because the story has value only if people see it. And if I haven’t figured out a great way to show that, then I haven’t really done my job, so, yes.

Jason Hamrock: [00:17:55] So, then you’re obviously capturing notes, and then do you invite them into the studio to get on camera?

Rob James: [00:18:02] No, I don’t ever start with a camera. So I had a photography studio for about 15 years, and I get it, there is so much anxiety for people around film or being, that’s my age, around being on the other side of a camera. But that’s the traditional way of doing it, right, hey, come into the studio and we’re going to film your testimony. Well, 50% of the people just said no, no matter how bad they want to share, they do not want to, I’m not getting on the other side of a camera. So I get it. And the introverts like me also, are probably not going to want to share, they’re going to want to share in another way. And the way they want to share is I’ll sit with a microphone in my face as long as you and I are eye to eye, and we have a long conversation that’s drawn out and it’s detailed, and I can tell that you’re interested in the problems that I’ve had. But it’s hard to do that in three minutes, you know what I mean, on a scripted format. So I tend to shy away from anything involving a camera unless I can tell that that’s actually something that would be valuable, and I know that they’re going to be willing to do that.

Rob James: [00:19:10] It limits me, if that makes sense.

Jason Hamrock: [00:19:12] So you’re doing this full-time?

Rob James: [00:19:14] No, actually part-time.

Jason Hamrock: [00:19:15] Part-time? Okay.

Rob James: [00:19:16] It’s really full-time, but I kind of tithe back the rest.

Jason Hamrock: [00:19:20] How many how many hours a week are you spending? Let’s put it that way.

Rob James: [00:19:24] I’m trying to decide if I should say. I mean, it’s probably full-timeish.

Jason Hamrock: [00:19:28] So full time.

Rob James: [00:19:30] I don’t clock that many hours.

Jason Hamrock: [00:19:32] Who are you actually talking to on any given month?

Rob James: [00:19:36] How many people?

Jason Hamrock: [00:19:37] Yeah.

Rob James: [00:19:38] Oh, that’s a good question. I don’t know, probably 20 or so. Yeah, sometimes more, sometimes less.

Jason Hamrock: [00:19:45] Yeah, think about that, church, right now everyone listening to my voice is going, oh, my goodness, 20 a month. We’re lucky to get 20 a year or over two years.

Rob James: [00:19:55] Yeah, well, that’s because you’re going at it thinking, oh, who can I talk to for this sermon bumper? You know what I mean? And it has to be deep, and it has to be, I have to be able to wrap it up with a bow, and it has to be a testimonial that has a beginning and an end as if those actually even exist. And so as a church, you know, we limit ourselves to this tiny, tiny little fragment of stories when we could be opening ourselves up to so much more.

Bart Blair: [00:20:24] So let me double-click on that then. So what you’re saying is a lot of the stories that you’re gathering, collecting, and retelling don’t have tidy Jesus storybook endings to them.

Rob James: [00:20:39] Shocking.

Bart Blair: [00:20:40] Not all? Yeah, so give us some framework for that. What do some of these stories look like? Help us understand what kind of stories you’re going after, and frame that for us.

Rob James: [00:20:54] I mean, here’s an example. Let’s say the Pastor comes to me and says we need a good dark-to-light story, and it’s a story about a woman who has recently lost her husband from cancer, and she’s had to learn after a lifetime of living with that paradigm. How do I do that? Right? How do I live outside of that? And the light is, well, I poured myself back into the scripture and I got myself into a women’s group or something like that. And then, you know what I mean? You can hear the sermon film in your mind right now, the music is crescendoing up and we’ve got this great amazing, and it is for that moment in time is an unbelievable, testament to the power of Christ. I am thinking, okay, and then now what? Because life doesn’t work that way, nor should it, nor did God ever promise us to have this clean wrapped-up testimonial life, and then no problems follow. And so I purposely try to follow up with people that have done stories, especially powerful ones like that, six months to a year later, and just make sure, just ask, how’s your life going? What’s happening to you? And here’s an example, a woman who had done a similar story for, a year later was diagnosed with cancer. And so was now struggling through that journey with, you know, her children and so on in a completely new story. And her new recognition of how she needed to actually pour in even more than she had poured in before into her faith. So the stories just continue, that’s our life.

Jason Hamrock: [00:22:40] Wow, that’s amazing. I bet we probably don’t do that, we probably just move on to the next thing we need to get to. Going back to the people who were open to sharing their story, God’s not done.

Rob James: [00:22:53] No, God is never done. And I would say that I think the typical response from pastoral staff, and there’s nothing wrong with this because they’re thinking of it in terms of, well, haven’t we already told that story? Or, you know, our people were in the service a year ago, for example, and they already saw this story. What would be new? Because, again, that’s the paradigm, I don’t understand. We’ve baptized somebody, and we had awesome, beautiful music in church, we baptized them, is that the end? I was like, no, of course not, that’s never the end, that’s just sort of the beginning, now is when the fun stuff happens.

Jason Hamrock: [00:23:31] This is such a good conversation. Okay, give me some ways that you…What would you do to encourage people who are hearing you right now that go, yeah, we just don’t do a very good job. Where do I start?

Rob James: [00:23:48] Well, you need to know your church, first of all, the church body and what they’re going to be accepting of. You know, I was fortunate to, when I lived in the Midwest, we attended, my wife and I, and our then new children, attended a nondenominational that had a lot of Baptist underpinnings. So there was a lot of storytelling, and a lot of people standing up and sharing testimonials, just the testimonial of the day, you know, that kind of thing. So I got to see a lot of it and you could see that it’s the movement in the audience is palpable when that happens, especially when people are sharing openly. Well, Texas is just different, I mean, the way we have to be a little bit more creative about how we get through to people. So my advice is to know your church and then formulate a plan for how you get buy-in with your pastoral staff. And that buy-in, I believe, really needs to be public, it can’t just be, Rob, tell stories. Because I got that at the beginning, oh, so you’re going to have a blog. So like, well, I mean, sort of, maybe, that’s part of it. And that is part of it, a tiny part of it. But I need from you, you know, anytime we can, and this goes back to micro nudging, remind people it’s so important to tell your story, share what’s happening in this room today with your neighbor. It does not have to be on film. It doesn’t have to be, you don’t have to stand up in the sermon or whatever, you just need to pat somebody on the back and say, this is the thing I’m going through, can I share with you? And that’s it, but that comes from the staff, I really believe.

Jason Hamrock: [00:25:29] Yeah, and I think that using those stories is not only to encourage the congregation but almost probably more importantly to encourage people who are not yet a part of your church or the body.

Rob James: [00:25:42] Oh, absolutely.

Jason Hamrock: [00:25:43] So they can see that there is some hope through that. That’s why I’m always encouraging churches, hey, those stories, what’d you do with them? You know, not only put them on social media, put them on your website where it’s relevant and makes sense because that’s where people are checking you out. Put them in your Google business profile, upload that video, make it shorter, you know, but upload that video. Just because people who are investigating and checking out your church can see and watch those stories and hopefully be moved to action, a call to action.

Rob James: [00:26:13] Yeah, that’s right.

Bart Blair: [00:26:15] Hey, Rob, who are you looking to, listening to, reading, and studying up from, that’s helping you develop your skills to be an effective storyteller? Are there certain resources that you’ve leaned into or leaning into these days?

Rob James: [00:26:32] I read a lot. So I think this is like, you know, how do I become a good writer? Well, you have to read a ton before you ever become a good writer. And think before you can become a good storyteller, you need to know what makes a good story. And this is kind of where, as a church, sometimes they say, don’t ever work at a church, you know, because then you’ll see what’s behind the curtain. And sometimes, you know, you understand the stagecraft and things and it sort of feels like, yeah…

Bart Blair: [00:27:02] Nobody likes to eat the sausage when they know how it’s made, right?

Rob James: [00:27:05] Yeah, kind of. I mean it feels so much, like I grew up my mother was in theater and so I grew up as a child sleeping in the, you know, the stands or the audience, whatever, in the auditorium when they would have rehearsals at night. And I remember thinking it was so anti-climatic to go to see the opening on Saturday night or whatever, whatever play they were doing because I’ve seen this 325,000 times, this is actually not exciting at all. But I try to obviously read a lot, I also try to follow some particular podcasts that I really enjoy in terms of the quality of storytelling, especially from a Christian perspective, those are the kinds of things I do. So I read a ton and I try to follow podcasts that have sort of that story quality.

Bart Blair: [00:27:57] Can you name any of those podcasts off the top of your head? If you can’t, I’ll get you to email them to me, and we’ll put them in the show notes.

Rob James: [00:28:03] No, no, no, that’s fine. My personal favorite is Compelled, Paul Hastings, I believe does that one, he’s here in Texas. Amazingly high-quality stories, and he’s done a really good job of crafting a narrative around the stories, which is sort of how I approach our podcast here at the church, and they’re just really well done. And I’m always jealous, you know because he gets a national reach for story subjects. And so, but very high quality, he does it, I think he and his wife produce it on their own and it’s an amazingly well-done Christian podcast.

Bart Blair: [00:28:42] The one that comes to my mind, I don’t know if you’ve ever listened to Malcolm Gladwell’s podcast, Revisionist History. Do you ever listen?

Speaker4: [00:28:48] Oh, sure. Oh, absolutely.

Bart Blair: [00:28:49] I love the way that he takes historical stories and tells the stories, right? And of course, it’s very different from what you would be doing in terms of sharing, you know, personal testimonies or life-changing stories. Malcolm Gladwell is obviously a phenomenal writer as well, but there is something super creative about the way that he gets into certain topics and sort of peels them apart and then uses them to tell a story through his podcast.

Rob James: [00:29:18] Yeah, absolutely.

Jason Hamrock: [00:29:20] Rob, how can our listeners get a hold of you? They may have some questions, and I’d love it if you could share with them. How can they get in touch with you?

Rob James: [00:29:30] Sure, you can always email, it’s always really effective, right? My email here…

Bart Blair: [00:29:37] As long as you’re a person who checks your email, it’s effective.

Rob James: [00:29:40] I check my email, I’m old, so I have an AOL account my wife and I both do.

Bart Blair: [00:29:45] Oh, my goodness.

Rob James: [00:29:49] Always, you know you can always call through the church. But my email here is Stories@Doxology.Church.

Jason Hamrock: [00:29:56] There you go, stories@Doxology.Church. So, yeah, I just encourage our listeners, if you have some burning questions that we didn’t ask but you’re like, oh, I’d love to learn about this, email Rob. I don’t know of very many positions in churches that have what Rob’s doing. I know we do them, but it’s usually delegated to communications or worship or somebody, but not a person that’s dedicated to storytelling. So you may have some more questions, please ask Rob. I love what you do, Rob, because stories are how we can connect with people and let them know there’s hope, right? And Jesus has worked in our lives, and through us we can we can pass that baton on. And I just think, admittedly, we’re okay at it, but we need to be a lot better.

Rob James: [00:30:52] That’s right. Yeah

Bart Blair: [00:30:53] Well, Rob James from Doxology Bible Church in Fort Worth, Texas, thank you so much for agreeing to be our guest. It was great to meet you in person when I got the opportunity to do that a couple of months ago, and great to have you on the show. For those of you who have tuned in to this week’s episode, make sure that you check the show notes for Rob’s contact information if you have any follow-up questions for him. Of course, you can always reach out to Jason or me if there’s anything that we can do to serve your church. And as a friendly reminder, if you haven’t ever left us a rating or review, wherever you listen to your podcast, make sure that you do that. We want five-star reviews, we don’t really want one-star reviews, if one-star or two-star is what you got for us, just pretend we don’t exist and go listen to somebody else’s podcast. But if you can leave us a five-star review, we would appreciate that. Rob, again, thanks for being on the show today. We appreciate you, brother.

Rob James: [00:31:43] Yeah, of course. Thank you.

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