How Average Leaders Can Become Extraordinary | Jud Boies

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Jud shares how to go from average to extraordinary. Gaining traction in your community, evangelizing, and growing them as disciples.

Podcast Notes

Questions for Jud? ~


Thrive Conference – Church Goals

Podcast Transcription


Bart Blair: [00:00:01] Hey, welcome to season two, episode one of the Missional Marketing Church Growth Interviews podcast. My name is Bart Blair, I’m a coach and digital strategist for Missional Marketing, and I also happen to be the co-host of this podcast, and I’m joined by my co-host, the CEO of Mission Marketing, Jason Hamrock.

Jason Hamrock: [00:00:19] Hey, Bart, how are you today?

Bart Blair: [00:00:21] You know, Jason, I’m doing very well. The summer’s over, we’re into the fall. We’re into season two of our podcast, it’s been a lot of fun, we’ve got a lot of stuff going on in the Missional Marketing world, lots of stuff going on in the church world, and I’m really excited about this season of our podcast.

Jason Hamrock: [00:00:37] I am too, we have a great lineup. And today we’ve got a phenomenal leader, Jud Boies, he is the director of Church Goals and Business Goals at Bayside Church, which is a megachurch in Northern California. Jud, the cool thing about Jud is he’s a church guy, but he’s also a business guy. He’s been in the business world for a long time, so he’s going to bring a lot of great inspiration and truth about how the church can learn from the business world and how the church can get better. And he’s been doing that at Bayside very, very successfully. In fact, so much so that Bayside said, hey Jud, we really need you to help train other churches on how, how they should do church better from assimilation, to, you know, greeting people, to growing their church and everything in between. And so this is a great interview with Jud.

Bart Blair: [00:01:32] Yeah, it really is pretty cool what they’ve done during COVID. They were doing a lot for local businesses and business leaders because that’s really Jud’s expertise. And you’ll hear in the interview how he transitioned from creating systems and strategies for businesses that work really well in the context of the local church. And I don’t want that to put you off, a lot of people, there’s a little bit of tension when we start saying, well, why are we applying business practices to the local church? And, you know, and I get the argument, but at the same time, sometimes there’s just smart things that you do. And that’s what Jud shares with us, is just some really, really smart things that you can do as a church leader to help your church get traction in your community, reaching more people for Jesus, and helping those people grow as disciples. So we’re really thankful for Jud spending the time with us that he did. And so without any further delay, here’s our interview with Jud Boies.


Bart Blair: [00:00:18] Well, it’s my pleasure to welcome Jud Boies to the podcast. Jud, good to see you today.

Jud Boies: [00:00:23] Hey, great to be with you guys.

Bart Blair: [00:00:27] Well, we’re glad that you decided to spend some time with us. You are on the West Coast, the left coast of America in the Bay Area, I’m guessing. I actually didn’t ask you where you live, but I’m assuming that since you serve in a church in the Bay Area that you were living in the Bay Area, is that correct?

Jud Boies: [00:00:42] No, it’s actually a suburb of Sacramento called Granite Bay, so right in the Central Valley. And I serve at the, I think the largest church in northern California.

Jason Hamrock: [00:00:53] Yeah.

Bart Blair: [00:00:54] Ok. Yeah. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about the church, and just tell us a little bit of your story about how you got into ministry and how you ended up where you are today.

Jud Boies: [00:01:02] Yeah. So first on Bayside Church. Bayside, again, Granite Bay, California. I started with Bayside in 1997, and there were 500 people in a cafeteria, we were about two years old at that point. And instantly got involved, and in the last 20 something years, we’ve grown to eight campuses. Pre-Covid, we were a little over 20,000 people in seats on a weekend, and last year, the fastest-growing church in the country. Which is surprising after the church was 20 something years old that you become fast-growing. I joined the church because a friend of mine invited me, and instantly wanted to get involved, and the first thing that I did was start as a road warrior, which was directing people into the parking lot on the weekend. But eventually, that led to a variety of other jobs serving the church. Around the early 2000s, like 1999, 2000, I was asked to join the board of the church, was on the board for 10 years, and was the Vice-Chair of the board for the last five years that I served on the board. 2011 comes around, and I’m asked to join the staff as the Executive Pastor. So our current Executive Pastor had left, was asked to come and serve at a local university as their president. Our Senior Pastor called me and said, you know more about the inner workings of Bayside than anybody, you’ve got to take his seat, and he was very persuasive about it, and so that’s what led me to Bayside.

Jason Hamrock: [00:02:31] Wow. Ok, so now you’re in a new role, you’re doing the Church Goals thing. And so can you talk to our audience about what’s Church Goals? What’s your role?

Jud Boies: [00:02:42] Yeah, absolutely. So and that story started really what I was doing in the marketplace before Bayside. So 1995, 1996, I owned a company that converts paper to CD-ROM. So we were like Kinko’s in reverse, we would take large quantities of paper, scan them, and put them onto CDs. It was really the cutting edge, or the beginning of, creating electronic documents that we would search for on the Internet. And so, and I would find that people would leave me and my employment for like 10 cents an hour. So I was paying like ten dollars an hour, if somebody offered them ten dollars and ten cents, boom, they’d bolt. And it was painful, both in terms of recruiting, but training and all of the things that go into the company. We operated 24 hours a day, seven days a week, at over a hundred employees. And so I thought, I’ve got a stem this, I’ve got to do something to turn this around. And I started to study everything that I could possibly find on how do you attract, and more importantly, how do you retain employees? And I kept coming across study after study that said the same things, was the number one thing that people learned in the workplace was to enjoy the people they work with. The number two thing that they wanted was to fulfill the contract, and the contract was really simple, I’ll give you ten dollars an hour, you use your skills and talents to produce something of interest for the company, putting paper through machines. The third thing they wanted was rules. Today, we would call that probably, mission, purpose, values, especially with millennials, they really want to work for companies that are producing something of value for society, they want to missional purpose. Interestingly, your company is called Missional Marketing, and it’s very appropriate. The fourth thing they wanted was recognition for the job they did. And the fifth thing was money. So isn’t it interesting that money wasn’t the first thing? Unless you didn’t get one, two, or three, then money moves to number one..

Jud Boies: [00:04:40] So, I built a little program around doing exactly that, making sure that my employees absolutely loved the people they work with. Number two, that they knew how to fulfill the contract and be successful. Third, that we had rules in place. I did this, and everything changed, it literally stopped turnover, and I created this little program where we would just talk about our mission and our purpose, we would do things to get people to know each other. And literally, I was taking things that I was hearing in church on Sunday and applying them in business on Monday, and it ended up employees started taking the information that we were doing home, and pretty soon their spouses were contacting me going, hey, could you bring this to my company? This is really good stuff. And before I knew it, about 30 companies were subscribing to it, it was kind of the early podcasts at the time. I mean, there weren’t podcasts in 1995, but it was the paper version of it and kind of an email version of it.

Jud Boies: [00:05:43] And before I knew it, they were saying, you got to come to my company and do this, and teach it. And so it turned into a consulting company, we wrote a book on it and started taking this to companies around the country. And in 2005, again, I’m serving on the board of Bayside, and our senior pastor comes to me and goes, hey, there’s a church that called us, they’re in decline, they’re really struggling. Do you think you can take what you’ve shown to businesses and how to turn them around and apply it to the church? And it literally became that I took everything that we had done with businesses, went into the church, and sure enough, the church propped right back up and got healthy and started growing again. And that was the first church, and ever since then, consistently we get calls every month or so, and we’d go out and teach them the same thing. And that was the beginning of Church Goals.

Jason Hamrock: [00:06:32] Wow.

Jud Boies: [00:06:32] 2011 rolls around, and again, I get a call from our senior pastor and he said, hey, our executive pastor left, you’ve got to come and take his job, he’s very persuasive. I’m, you know, very successfully teaching companies around the country how to do what we call Business Goals, and churches how to do Church Goals, but inevitably, come on staff. And you know, guys, honestly, I think it was God saying, I want you to go in the church and experience working and employment inside the church and really see what’s going on behind the curtain in churches for experience, because I’m teeing you up to really go and do this around the country and around the world with lots and lots of churches. And so came on staff, we’re still working with churches, but the business side kind of waned a tiny bit because I wasn’t spending full time at it. Until about two years into being the executive pastor, and a group of businessmen in our church came and said, hey, why did you stop teaching what you were doing to companies? We’ve read your book, and it’s good stuff, would you consider maybe taking us through what you were teaching to companies, maybe as a ministry? And I thought, oh, that’s interesting. And I said, OK, I’ll tell you what, I’ll take you through this as a ministry under two conditions, condition number one, you have to tithe. If I’m going to show you how to be successful using biblical principles of everything that we put into the program is entirely biblically-based, it’s exactly how you love people and how you love God in the workplace. I said when I show you how to be successful using biblical principles, when that happens and you’re really successful, give credit where credit is due, and you can do that by tithing. And so the second thing is, if I’m going to do this as a ministry, I don’t want to spend all my time finding people to come to the ministry, fill your seat. If you found the class to be of value, then tell somebody else and have them come. And I said I’ll give you what I was teaching companies in 12 months in a six-week class, we’ll meet once a week for six weeks, for an hour each time. So we did the first class, it fills right up with 12 or 14 people. As soon as it’s done, everyone’s coming to me going, hey, I got a couple of people that really need to be here. But a couple of them don’t go to the church, would it be okay if I brought some people from outside the church? And an unintended consequence turned out to be that about half of each class fills up with people outside the church because it’s turned into this great outreach to businesses in our community.

Jud Boies: [00:09:03] So that was the beginning of Business Goals as a ministry, we kept doing Church Goals, and that brings us to about 2019, and three classes in a row said the same thing. Somebody would stand up at the end of class and go, and we would we’d be running classes about every eight weeks just year-round, and somebody in each class would stand up and say, this is great stuff, why aren’t you taking it around the country like Ramsey did with Financial Peace? Why are you just doing it at Bayside? And I thought, well, that’s interesting. And then our board, they got in touch with me and they said, hey, we keep hearing people that have gone through the class, the Business Goals class and are just really excited about what they learned and they’re deploying it in their business. They said, I know that you have a condition that they have to tithe, why don’t you run some numbers for us and tell us if people really do change their tithing? Well, since day one, I already had done that since I was in charge of the church from a financial point of view, I could look at giving records. And I would just anecdotally look and so say, you know, hey, I wonder if the people changed their tithing. And I was always really, really pleasantly surprised that after every class giving would go up between $25,000 and $100,000 dollars, just from a class of 10 to 12 people, and it was consistent every single class. And that really got everybody’s attention, they’re like, you need to be doing this around the country.

Jud Boies: [00:10:30] And so I’m coming to an end here. Really, what happened was we started to reach out to churches and say, do you have a ministry to the businesses in your church? And they’d say, no, we’ve always wanted one, we just don’t know how to connect with them. And I said, let me tell you about Business Goals, you can launch this, and we do it exactly like Financial Peace, it’s prerecorded, we have a coach. And they’d all be excited saying, yeah, I want to do that. And then I would tell them, why don’t you first go through the church version of it called Church Goals? Come to Church Goals first, you can do it as a church, it’s going to help your church, you’re going to learn all the things that we learned at Bayside about how we grew and how we became who we are, it’s incorporated into the class, and then you’ll be better suited to launch Business Goals.

Jud Boies: [00:11:14] Little did we know that right around the corner was Covid. And so Covid hits, and in the last 18 months, over 200 churches have now gone through the Church Goals program. And these were churches that were literally dead, or dying, or about to close their doors, because the pastors were discouraged. They were literally at their wit’s end saying, my church has dismissed, they’re all at home, and we’re struggling, and I just feel really in despair about this. And we’d show them how to turn that around. And the two go together in that we’d first, again, show the church how it can, using the same principles, start to grow. And then in about the third month after we work with them, then we tell them, why don’t you launch the Business Goals class? And it’ll help you not only relaunch outreach in your church, but it’ll help you connect with the business leaders in your church and the business leaders outside of your church. So, guys, that was probably way longer than you ever expected when you said, hey, tell us your story, but there you have the full meal.

Jason Hamrock: [00:12:24] I will tell you, I now can see the fingerprints of God. You just stitched it all for me, right? He is using you in mighty ways. So it’s really, really cool, thanks for sharing that. And our listeners are, you know, mostly church staff, you know, people that are serving in a church currently. So it sounds like this really, help me understand this, this Church Goals obviously is for church staff people, but also could be for elders, leaders of the church that serve in their church to go through Church Goals collectively to, you know, either a. strengthen a strong church, and b. reverse course on a dying church. And so that would be, that sounds like you go through Church Goals first, and then bring in the Business Goals because it makes sense, they go hand in hand, and your business leaders and owners can now get fed this incredible information. Is that correct? Is that how that would go?

Jud Boies: [00:13:27] Yeah. Jason, you’re spot on. So usually a senior pastor or an executive pastor will hear about Church Goals. They’ll start watching it and inevitably they’ll say, hey, would it be OK if we had some of our elders watching this, or can we have some of our staff? We tell them, invite everybody.

Jason Hamrock: [00:13:43] Yes!

Jud Boies: [00:13:44] Because this is not just for you. Then we also, we record every class, and so at the moment that the class is completed, they get an email with the recording of that class and we tell them, show it to everybody you want. It can be your volunteers, it’s really designed for volunteers, for sure. And let’s face it, most churches in America, out of the 300 and some odd thousand evangelical churches in the country, most of them are run predominantly by volunteers with maybe one or two paid staff. And so we’ve really designed this to help that smaller church, a church of 30 people, a church of 80 people, where they can deploy some pretty simple principles that they’ve never thought about and start to grow their church, but with volunteers. But, yeah, it applies to anybody that’s in the leadership in the church.

Jason Hamrock: [00:14:30] Yeah. Well, I really love your four or five principles on that. And I also, you know, it’s a little bit about Missional Marketing, the first version of Missional Marketing, and this is going back 13, 14 years, was stepping in to help churches…[inaudible] So we’d step into a church, help a church understand who their business leaders and owners are, and the whole point of that was to, you know, help them understand they can be better marketplace disciples, that’s what they’re called to do. And it’s one of those things where once a business owner recognizes and realizes, oh, I’m not really the owner, that’s right, God, he owns it because he owns everything, and I just submit myself to him. And now I’m going to take that challenge of going, you know what, ten percent is His, you just get blessed. And, you know, that’s just one of those things, and it comes from the Bible. But it’s been probably pretty cool…So you shared that there are a couple of success stories. Share with us a couple of success stories that churches have seen a turnaround because of implementing Church Goals.

Jud Boies: [00:15:38] Yeah. So you might remember, or you might know, that California in the last three or four years has become known for one thing in the summertime, and that’s wildfires. And we’ve had just some incredibly devastating fires. One of them was called the Camp Fire, and it was a town called Paradise. And Paradise. California is a little bit east of Chico, California, a college town. Paradise was a town of a little over 30,000 people, and over the course of a few days, better than 90 percent of that community was absolutely decimated, 90 percent of the community lost their houses. It was the most destructive fire in terms of loss of life, close to 90 people lost their lives in that fire, Netflix has done a special on it. But literally days after the fire, and I mean, just a couple of days after the fire, we get a call from Josh Gallagher, who’s the Senior Pastor of a church called Paradise C.M.A. Paradise C.M.A. was the largest church in that town, it had about 3000 people on a weekend, which is really remarkable that you’d have 10 percent of the community inside your church. And he said, we are devastated, 90 percent of our community is literally gone, there is no structure. We have one of the only standing buildings in the entire community, it’s our church. But we went from a church of 3000 to a church of 300 or 400, overnight, what do we do? Can we meet with you? So they came and met with us and our senior pastor said, you need to connect with Jud in Church Goals and what they’re doing. And so I met with them and I said, let’s get your team together, and I took them through the six-week class that we had in one day. And I just said, here are the things that you need to do to get back on track. And there were 16 staff people in that meeting, and they left and said, OK, we think we feel like we have a mission and we have a direction. I got a call six months later from Josh and he said, can I meet with you? And I said, yeah. And he came down and he goes, I just want to let you know, we’ve met our twelve-month goal in six months. The church is revitalized, the church is strong, we are moving. And one of the things that we had come up with was if 90 percent of their community was gone, where did they go? They moved about 20 miles to that town of Chico, and I said, if your congregation’s moved to Chico, you’d better move there with them.

Jason Hamrock: [00:17:58] Yeah.

Jud Boies: [00:17:59] And so they started a second Sunday morning service in Chico. And the senior pastor was literally driving twice, he’d start the service in paradise, complete that one, drive 20 minutes to the town of Chico, and give another their second service now. But they got completely revitalized. Interestingly, when Covid hit, I had Josh come on to one of our classes and tell the people in the class, hey, you’ve been through something like Covid, what do you think? And he literally said, guys, I don’t want to make light of what you’re going through, but honestly, this is a walk in the park. He said we’ve been through utter destruction. And he goes, we feel very qualified to go through Covid now because of what you guys have done. And it literally was the three steps that we bring to every single church that comes through. One is, what’s our new goal? What can we do in the environment that we’re in? What do we want to try to accomplish in the next 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, one year? The second is, do we have the right people in the right position to accomplish that goal? Probably mostly volunteer, maybe some paid staff, but are they clearly in the right position. and do they know what we’re supposed to be doing? And the third, and the most important one is, what do I need to do every single day? What are the three or four most important things that I need to do today, that are going to help us reach those goals that we set? And then we show them how to, not only do with their staff but to enlarge that to their congregation and more importantly, to their community. Where the community starts to know what the goals of that church are. And they literally became a center in that community for helping people go through the loss of their family home, maybe the loss of loved ones. My own nephew lost his house. and most tragic to him was he lost his dog. Which might not sound like a big thing, but there are just so many people, their pets are their children. And this church really became a pillar in their community to help the people that were struggling.

Jason Hamrock: [00:20:01] Wow. Bart?

Bart Blair: [00:20:02] Yeah. Let me ask…

Jud Boies: [00:20:04] Just one thing when Covid hit, it was deja vu, it was church after church was calling us going, we’re devastated, we’ve been decimated, we have nobody coming on Sunday. What do we do? And we’d just walk them through the same thing over a six-week program.

Bart Blair: [00:20:18] So, I think the question that I want to ask, I think you’ve already started to dip into it a little bit. I don’t necessarily, I don’t know how deep in the weeds you want to get. But if I’m a church leader and I hear you saying, OK, Church Goals can help you turn your church around, can give you some traction going another direction, and I sign up to participate. What am I actually participating in? Can you actually explain a little bit about what I’m getting myself into?

Jud Boies: [00:20:48] Yeah. And for most churches, and especially these denominations, I think the number one thing that they’d ask of us when they come is can we press reset? Can we hit the reset button, and literally just can we kind of like if you hit reset on your computer, it starts over and you got a fresh start? And so many people feel like they need a fresh start after Covid, or after you have this fire. And so for us, it started with this six-week class, which was really a framework. Our goal has never been to make any church out there a Bayside church, that’s not our goal. But we knew that we had a framework, a structure, and a strategy, that if people followed that structure and put their own liturgy, their own routines, and rituals, and ways of doing their own church, that they brought what was important to them and married that with where they felt God was calling them in this season, and they put those two things together. That we could come up with a new set of goals for their church that would be God-inspired, that would get everybody on board. So in this six-week class, which is one hour a week for six weeks, we show them the framework of the things that they have to do in order to be successful and to relaunch or to hit reset. And they’re like everything you learn from in your mistakes, you kind of learn as you go. We did the six-week class, and so many churches of those 200 would say, man, it was so content-rich. It was like, you know, taking and getting the entire Internet just thrown at you in terms of content, where do we start? And they said you had so much content, we’re having a hard time implementing and assimilating it. Could you maybe teach us over some time how to do this?

Jud Boies: [00:22:24] And so we created what we called the playbook, it’s a 12-month program where each month we give them what we call module. Three different modules on the three areas that churches really have to focus on, which is outreach, spiritual growth, and leadership development. Those are the three legs of a stool for any church that you have to use to grow your church. And we give them a module for each one of those areas and say, if you do this literally in baby steps, if you do this, this month, you’re going to see results.

Jud Boies: [00:22:53] And so the very first month, we get them prepared for new people to come into their church. And guys, I don’t know if you’ve ever been to another church outside of your own church, but I have to tell you, most churches are not visitor-friendly, they’re private clubs, and the entrance to the club is really difficult. You show up and you’re like, man, I’ve been to church a long, long time, and I’m here going, what do I do? What are they doing here? And what are their habits and routines? And I might feel a little uncomfortable. Well, if you’ve never been in church in your life and you walk into a church for the first time, you’re like, oh, my gosh, they’re speaking a different language. They’re all buddies with each other, and I’m the odd man out, it’s really uncomfortable. So month one, we show them how to be visitor friendly and get their church ready for new people to come.

Jud Boies: [00:23:38] The second month, we start walking them through how to start making themselves attractive to visitors, and how to start thinking about going out for new visitors, how to improve their preaching. And I think most people that visit church for the first time, if they haven’t been through our program, they would leave that church going, yeah, it’s what I thought church was all about, it’s kind of boring or really boring, they said stuff I didn’t even understand, and they asked me for money. And that’s kind of the most common response that you get a first-time visitor, someone that’s never been in church, visiting a church for the first time.

Jud Boies: [00:24:15] So, the first month, visitor-friendly. The second month, we want to make sure that they’re able to preach and teach in a way that everybody can understand and goes, that was pretty good, I like that. The third month, and this one’s my favorite, because of Missional, we’ve teamed up with you guys and you guys brought something to us that we use that’s just been phenomenal called the Google Grant. And so we, you know, signed up for that and we realized, oh, my gosh, if we bring every church that goes through the program, the grant, we’re going to have a steady stream of people coming to these churches, there’s no doubt.

Jud Boies: [00:24:52] My greatest fear guys, wasn’t that we’d be able to bring new people, I know that we are, we’ve seen it for the last year, it’s absolutely a guarantee that we’re going to bring people to their church. My fear and concern is that people walk in and walk right out and go, yup, that’s what I thought church was going to be like, and they don’t stay. And so literally from months four through twelve is focusing on the things that you need to do as a church to make sure that every time somebody walks in, they feel cared for, they can hear the gospel message. But more importantly, they can understand it, and be led to a decision for Christ in their life that they now make a permanent part of their lives and they get assimilated into that church where they’re making friends and the church grows.

Jason Hamrock: [00:25:39] You know, it’s simple stuff, but yet it’s incredibly difficult to think through and actually implement. Right?

Jud Boies: [00:25:46] And so it’s a 12 month program, and we honestly have 36 months of content, so people can stay with us for for 36 months.

Jason Hamrock: [00:25:55] That’s amazing, that’s so cool. Ok, so, this is probably obvious, but I want to hear it from you, so, you know, pastors are just kind of beat up, right? You know, Covid just pounded them. You know, what are you seeing as you coach these leaders into this new era of ministry? Like, how have you guys been leading churches? Is it the same, it doesn’t matter what’s coming at you, a fire or Covid, it’s you implement these same things? Or has there been some twists and turns as you’ve helped leaders kind of cope with what’s been going on with Covid?

Jud Boies: [00:26:34] You know, I think in most leadership environments, one of the questions that you get asked is, hey, who’s influenced you? What leaders have you admired? You know, who do you look up to? And, you know, our senior pastor, he, I think, had a profound moment in his life when his daughter, who was a senior in college at that point, came to him and had to interview a person of influence. She said, well, my dad’s a pastor in a big church, I think he’s a person of influence, can I interview him? And the school said, yeah. And she asked him, she said, Dad, what’s the most important thing that you do? And he thought about it for a few minutes and he said, the number one job that I have is for me to stay encouraged, for me to remain encouraged so that I can encourage other people no matter what they’re going through. He said that’s my primary responsibility. And we kind of made that, I mean, it hit us so profoundly when he said that, that was probably 10 or 15 years ago, but he literally has lived that his entire life. And so we’ve said the same thing to every church leader that comes to us, and we say our job is to show you how to become encouraged, how to remain encouraged, and how to encourage other people so that you can then do what God’s calling you to do, which is really two things. How do you encourage other people, and how do you support them through no matter what they’re going through? And support comes usually in two different facets, supporting them through a season of life that’s not great, like Covid, or wildfire, or death, or divorce, or, you know, whatever it is, or great seasons, just had a baby, just got married, I inherited a bunch of money. But those are both seasons of life, and we have to learn how to support people in all three seasons, the bad seasons, the great season, and the everyday season. And so that’s our mission is how do we get pastors to do what we believe God’s calling them to do, and that is support and encourage people?

Jason Hamrock: [00:28:33] Wow.

Bart Blair: [00:28:35] It’s really cool. You know, Chuck, who is part of our team at Missional Marketing, has been talking about Church Goals for months. Obviously, you’ve been working with him as we’ve been trying to help you expand your own footprint to reach more churches, and this has been super, super enlightening to me. If there are churches, pastors, church leaders that are listening that are tuned into this, they’re like, OK, I need to know where to go and how to start. What advice would you give them? Where should they go, and what are the first steps that they should take?

Jud Boies: [00:29:07] Yeah. So if they went to the website or, if they want to launch a business ministry in their church, that’s the best place to start. They can go there, and my recommendation is there’s a free class, it’s about a 30 to 40 minute class that’s called Overcoming The Five Biggest Obstacles to Church Growth, and they’ll get a flavor for how we teach. We literally go through and give them some really good content, if they just did the five things we talked about in that free class, they’re going to understand it. But ultimately sign up for the six-week class, and they can do that through the website. And then once they go through that website, literally everybody that comes through wants to continue on for two reasons. The class becomes almost a small group of pastors, it’s like 10 or 12 pastors that become friends with each other. The ongoing class becomes a cohort, so once a month when we have our group meeting, they’re sharing their successes, they’re sharing their failures, they’re sharing life, and then they’re getting these new ideas. But anyway, how do you get in touch with us? If you have a specific question for me, Jud B

Bart Blair: [00:30:19] That’s awesome. I really appreciate you taking the time with us. Jason, do you have any final questions or parting comments? And I want Jud to have the last word on this as well because if he’s got anything else that we didn’t ask him about that he feels is worth sharing with our audience, I’d love for him to have that opportunity. But Jason, I wanted to make sure if you had any other questions you had a chance.

Jason Hamrock: [00:30:37] Yeah, it sounds like, maybe I know the answer to this, but, you know, you influence a lot of people, who influences you?

Jud Boies: [00:30:46] So, great question. So one thing, I’m not on social media. And Chris Brown with North Coast Church down in San Diego. I have a daughter who lives in San Diego, so we spend a fair amount of time down there, we go to the North Coast whenever we’re there. And he had a revelation in the midst of Covid, in July of 2020, he was just so discouraged himself, he realized his discouragement was coming from social media in that there was nothing…And one of the things that all pastors faced in 2020, you couldn’t win. There was no way a pastor was going to win because they had one side of them saying, why are you doing this or supporting this, and the other side saying, why aren’t you doing this or supporting this? I was absolutely at odds from the other group. And then there was a group in the middle that was saying, you shouldn’t be doing either of those, you should be doing something different. But they were getting beat up, and he said, you know what, I needed to leave social media. Just to be honest, I’ve never been really on social media. We have a team of people that handles our social media stuff, but I don’t pay attention to it.

Jud Boies: [00:31:47] So now who is it that I do pay attention to? I honestly look for the pastors around the country that I think are doing the best job of conveying the message that we need to convey at that moment. And so Luis Palau has been a big influence in my life, his son Andrew is a friend of mine. But Luis has been to Bayside a lot, and before he passed away, I was really, really was influenced by him, because no matter what was going on in life, he said there’s just one answer to everything. it’s Jesus Christ. And we really took that to heart in our own church and said, you know what, instead of getting caught up in the politics of the season, instead of getting caught up to the racial issues of the season, or the economics and the economy, we should be focusing on one thing, Jesus Christ. So my influences are people that I feel are at that moment doing the best they can to just continue to bring the message of Christ, and its pastors around the country that have done that. And I just I’m a junkie for going out and looking at, you know, our pastors best delivering the message. And honestly, guys, just a passion of mine for 20 years has been, I think that most people can’t support and defend why they’re Christian. I ask people, why are you a Christian? And so many people have almost no answer, and I think it’s a travesty. So, I think the best we can do is to tell people in 30 seconds why they believe what they believe, is one of the best things that we can do.

Bart Blair: [00:33:21] Awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks for sharing that. I’m a, I’ll say it, I’m just going to say it, I’m a fanboy of Chris Brown, I’ve been listening to his preaching, his teaching for years. I think he’s one of the best, I wish he was on social media because I would follow him. But I get it, I totally understand it. I think we all have those moments where we’re sort of like, you know, is this really the best thing for me, am I feeding my soul well, with social media? I will say during Covid, I had a moment where I was sort of convicted when a pastor friend of mine in Florida said, isn’t it great now that every church has had to go online? You can get on Facebook any time during the day and you can see people sharing the gospel on Facebook. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I think that’s really, I think the church, obviously at Missional Marketing, we want to help churches learn to leverage digital tools so that we can bring light into the darkness. And, you know, my personal life experience, my family experience, has been one that we’ve seen some of the darkness that can come as a result of social media. And so I, you know, as much as I don’t necessarily love social media on a personal level, I think that there’s value in it for churches to be able to use it as a way of continuing to share the love of Jesus and share the message of the gospel. But there are just as many critics [inaudible]. There are just as many Christians who misuse it as their own personal soapbox or platform and don’t do us any favors with that.

Jud Boies: [00:34:49] And the whole world is using it, so we can’t deny it. We can’t deny that it’s powerful, it’s impactful, and it reaches millions of people. So, yeah, we have to have a component, I just don’t let it influence me in negative ways. So…

Bart Blair: [00:35:03] Yeah, that’s another soapbox and another podcast episode for another day, which I’m sure Jason and I will do that at some point. Jud, thank you.

Jason Hamrock: [00:35:11] Yeah, we probably will.

Bart Blair: [00:35:12] Jud, thank you so much for taking the time with us today. I’m going to be sharing the good news of Church Goals with pastors that I have an opportunity to rub shoulders with across the country. I really appreciate you, what you’re doing, Bayside, and all that you guys are doing there in your area of California, and thanks again for being on the show.

Jud Boies: [00:35:34] Yeah, thanks for having me. Good to meet you guys both.

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