Church Communications That Keeps Staff Unified | Amy Whitfield

Jason Hamrock: [00:00:07] Hey, Amy, welcome to the show. How are you today?

Amy Whitfield: [00:00:10] I’m great, thanks for having me. It’s nice to meet you all and to be a part of this.

Jason Hamrock: [00:00:15] Oh, what a delight to have you on board. I’m excited about our conversation because you work at a pretty decently sized church.

Amy Whitfield: [00:00:23] Pretty decently sized, yeah.

Jason Hamrock: [00:00:24] Summit Church. Yeah.

Amy Whitfield: [00:00:26] Yes.

Jason Hamrock: [00:00:26] In your role?

Amy Whitfield: [00:00:27] Yeah, so I’m the Executive Director of Communications at the Summit Church, which is in Raleigh Durham, North Carolina, so we’re in the research triangle. And we are a, yeah, it’s a pretty decently sized church, we run averaging right now around 10,000 every week in worship. And we have right now 12 campuses in our area, we’re about to launch our 13th, and primarily live stream teaching from the broadcast campus every week to all the other campuses around. So it’s a yeah, it’s an exciting place to be. And I grew up in a very small church, so our staff is three times the size of my church that I grew up in, so it’s a big, big, big difference.

Amy Whitfield: [00:01:22] But it’s an interesting thing to do communications because you’re communicating to people in different communities all over the region, so that’s been fun. I’ve been in this role for two years now after most of my career being in denominational work, and so now I feel like, you know, kind of on the front lines of ministry, but in a kind of an interesting communication space.

Jason Hamrock: [00:01:48] Okay. So, two years in that role. I’ve been a part of, as a comm director, where we added campuses. And boy, we learned a lot.

Amy Whitfield: [00:01:58] Oh, yeah.

Jason Hamrock: [00:01:59] We paid a lot of stupid taxes just right. We learned what not to do. Okay, so in two years’ time, what have you learned and what have you adopted and changed? I’m guessing because you just said something, your footprint is huge.

Amy Whitfield: [00:02:15] Yes.

Jason Hamrock: [00:02:17] You’ve got 13 campuses on a big…So you got different people that you probably have to say different things and show different things to that are connected. Tell me something that you’ve had to learn over two years.

Amy Whitfield: [00:02:29] Yeah. So in some ways, a lot of it the learning curve for me has been doing it at this level because the communications world that I had been in was in denominational entity work. So I would have large, you know, footprints, but I’m trying to either increase enrollment at a school, or I’m trying to kind of get announcements out, or I’m trying to advertise something. This is really different because for these people, this is their church, this is their community, and we’re connecting with people in the area. But as you just said, you’ve got campuses all over there in different counties. If something happens in their community that, you know, is a big deal, either in the school system or something, like sometimes they’re so far apart that what’s a huge issue in one part of the triangle, it’s not that these folks don’t care, but it’s not hitting them, you know, where they live. So we’re constantly having to think through how to speak in a unified way about our church and about our mission in the area, while also being nimble enough to address and respond to the needs of the communities around not just for our people to equip them, but also for people who may be coming in. So it’s kind of an interesting fence to walk all the time to sort of keep that DNA, that ethos of our church really spilling out, but also recognize that they’re doing it in different contexts.

Jason Hamrock: [00:04:07] How have you changed much of the communications team structure?

Amy Whitfield: [00:04:13] Yeah, so when I came in, there were a handful of things that Summit was really trying to expand on. You know, one was to hone in and build a more robust internal communication strategy with the staff, because that can be kind of interesting as well, right? You got a 300-ish person staff, we have a central staff, and then we have campus teams all over the triangle. And getting people, first of all, just getting the word out about anything. You know, what you don’t want is that news about church initiatives, changes that are happening, to be just trickling out because folks don’t feel like they’re, you know, super connected. You also want to make sure that as things happen, you’re equipping people so that if members come and ask them a question, they don’t feel caught off guard. And so one of the first things I did was to really sit down and help develop a robust strategy for how to communicate things to our staff before we ever even roll it out to the church as a whole, and so we have lots of different circles of communication depending on the issue.

Amy Whitfield: [00:05:29] And then the other thing, a lot of my background is in crisis management or crisis communication. I like to say crisis communication more than anything because crises are going to happen, and what people need is they need clear communication in the midst of it. And also when you’re dealing with that many people, a small crisis, if it’s handled well, you are able to minister to people and to help them.

Bart Blair: [00:05:59] It stays small.

Amy Whitfield: [00:06:00] Right. If it’s not, it can become a big one. So what I love to do is to equip our, particularly our campus teams, but to equip everyone to be able to step into a crisis and to handle it well and to care for people well and to be able to speak, you know, to speak well in the moment, because that can be very nerve-wracking. So those were some of the first things that I really worked on when I came. We already had a pretty good structure in place for programming and production and, you know, creative things like that, and so a lot of those cylinders were firing, and I came in and I lead that team. But there are some of the most amazing people ever. And there’s not, you know, a whole lot that I had had to change there, I just get to come and really be a part of what they’re doing.

Jason Hamrock: [00:06:56] Don’t mess with the recipe, right?

Amy Whitfield: [00:06:57] That’s right. That’s right. Yeah.

Jason Hamrock: [00:06:59] We’re making good cookies here. Okay, I want to go back to, though, you said something that really caught my attention, that was you had to build some strategies for internal communications. And as a comm director, you know, even if you have a staff of like 20 or 30, there’s still a lot of times, you know, not everybody’s on the same page. So can you share with the audience maybe 1 or 2 things that you found?

Bart Blair: [00:07:23] I’m laughing because I served on a staff of four, and we had communication issues at a staff of four. So, yeah, it doesn’t matter if you’ve got 4 or 400, there are probably some principles here that we can learn. Sorry for interrupting you, Jason, it just made me laugh.

Amy Whitfield: [00:07:38] Now, one of the things that can be so frustrating for staff members is to feel like they don’t know what’s going on. You know, people are going to agree with the vision or the direction or they may disagree with the vision or the direction, and your leadership as a whole has to navigate through that. But when somebody comes and asks a question about something or tells them something and their first response is, I had no idea. That is such a morale killer, like, people just, they don’t like to feel uninformed or ill-equipped. So it really is important for us to communicate to our staff what’s happening and then the why behind the what. So even if they don’t, you know, even if they say, well, I wouldn’t do it that way, they at least understand why, so they can explain it to someone else. And I think it helps them, it helps them to say, okay, I might not do it that way or they may be great with it, you know, it helps them to get behind it. But even if they don’t fully agree, we really try to instill as a staff value giving one another the benefit of the doubt. And once you are transparent, when you really share things and you explain, we can give each other the benefit of the doubt and then they feel like they can go out and talk to people about it.

Amy Whitfield: [00:09:07] So we try to do that on everything from whether it’s an actual staff issue, a direction of the church, or sometimes when things are happening in the culture and the church is going to respond to it in some way. It’s going to be, maybe it’s going to be addressed in the sermon, or there’s something going out on social media. Our campus pastors don’t need to be caught off guard, that they have a church member coming up and asking about something that got mentioned in the sermon about this issue. We tell our campus pastors, here’s what’s about to be said on the stage, these are the resources we’re going to share in the email that goes out on Monday, here is something to help you be able to answer questions. And if you reach a question that you don’t know how to answer, then here’s who to send them to. Like we want to get them to the place where they feel stable and secure in how to respond, and that is a significant thing, particularly in a multi-site setting.

Jason Hamrock: [00:10:14] Yeah. Yeah. And that can be a pretty big pain point, so you’ve helped to step in and alleviate that. So you lead a pretty big staff, a team underneath you?

Amy Whitfield: [00:10:26] Yeah.

Jason Hamrock: [00:10:26] Tell us, I’m going to have you be a little vulnerable here. Tell us something you’re struggling with in leading your team. And then tell us something where you’re like, oh, I’m doing this with my team and it’s working really, really well.

Amy Whitfield: [00:10:39] So obviously I think one of the biggest struggles that we have as a team comes in the size. And then we have people doing so many different things and they’re in different places, so everybody’s got different schedules, we aren’t necessarily all together, you know, at once. Our offices are in different spots all over the complex, and then obviously people keep different schedules because our production team, they may need to be off doing something, you know, here, or they’re working evenings for different events, and so trying to stay connected is tough. And especially because you have, I mean turnover rate is always you know, you’ve got new people coming on, or maybe people they move or something happens. We’re pretty heavy sending church, so a lot of times we have folks that go out with church plants and things like that. So just keeping folks connected can be a real challenge, we try to use a lot of different tools. I mean, we have lots of regular one on one meetings between supervisors and people directly under them. We have, you know, Slack channels and things just to keep relationships going. Because we got to be able to trust each other, especially when things get crazy on a weekend or, you know, something like that.

Jason Hamrock: [00:12:06] Trust is huge.

Amy Whitfield: [00:12:08] Absolutely.

Bart Blair: [00:12:10] Let me ask you a question, Amy. You know, one of the things that we hear when we talk about church staff often is that ministries will silo, right? So you get a silo for children’s ministry, and a silo in students ministry, and a silo with marriage ministry or what have you. And oftentimes those siloed ministries struggle in engaging with each other, they’re not all pushing the rock in the same direction all the time. You have so much diversity in your staff, in what you’re accomplishing, internal, external, and production. How do you prevent silos from happening even within the ministry teams that you lead?

Amy Whitfield: [00:12:49] Yeah, that is a constant thing that we’re always having to fight, and you always have to sort of get counterintuitive. You know, instinct is to just go to your desk and sort of do your thing, and we always have to be checking and asking, who else needs to know about this. One question that some of my immediate team were always saying, who needs to be in this meeting? Who needs to be in this conversation? Is there anyone missing? And I got to tell you, like humility and being willing to apologize, you know, quickly, being quick to do that, is such an important trait. I just had an issue where we had something on the teaching schedule, some different schedules changed with some different folks preaching. And because we have our primary, J.D. Greear’s our primary teaching pastor, but then we have some other teaching pastors that are in the rotation. And there was this moment where it was about three weeks between series, between like one big series ending and another one beginning. And so we had all the conversations and the teaching pastor that was going to be handling it during that time, working with the comms team and, you know, getting creatives, you know, and deliverables, things like that, settled in on what direction that would go. And it just happened to be a direction that it would have been helpful for our Next Gen team to know about because of ways they could supplement it, resource parents, some action steps, and nobody really, it was a pretty last-minute pivot and then it just wasn’t communicated to them. And that’s a moment that when that happens, and they’re incredibly gracious people, and the leader over that team said, hey, can we get any information? I mean in that moment I had to just say, let me tell you exactly how this happened, I’m going to walk you through. Here’s how we got to the decision, and here’s how this direction was settled on for this mini-sermon series. But when it got to me, I should have remembered to bring you in, and I didn’t, and I’m sorry. And it’s amazing how when that happens, people can just regroup, you know, they still feel seen. They feel like, okay, it was a mistake. As opposed to we’re always getting left out in the silo. So honestly acknowledging that silos are going to happen and just trying to regroup all the time, bring people back in, you know?

Jason Hamrock: [00:15:26] Yeah, that constant communication thing is so hard to maintain consistently, right, and that’s critical. And we were kind of mentioning this earlier on the podcast of our roles, and it needs to be we’re servant leaders to the people above us. The people that are below that report to us, I like to flip that to say, no, no, no, no, we’re here to serve them, and we’re here to apologize when we mess up because we mess up. But I think that goes a long way, you have to keep constantly communicating and then, you know, just, hey, nobody’s perfect around here. So the good news is Jesus loves us regardless.

Amy Whitfield: [00:16:08] That’s right. And that’s where, like, we also do a lot of work to communicate those staff values. We have certain ones where we are always seeking to work together to give one another the benefit of the doubt, to seek out feedback from others, and to give godly affirmation. And so we work to kind of entrench that in what we do as well so that we can then live it out.

Jason Hamrock: [00:16:33] Yeah. Yeah, that’s good. Okay, you mentioned kind of the thing that you struggle with, which is constantly communicating. What’s something that you’ve really implemented well in your two years on the team that has really stuck and you feel like, yeah, this has helped our team a lot.

Amy Whitfield: [00:16:52] Yeah. I mean, one thing I think is that we have worked a lot on the area I mentioned on crisis communication, and that’s been something that for our team as a whole to sort of grasp as something that’s important. A lot of churches don’t want to think about that because it’s like if I prepare for a crisis, then, you know, then it’s like I’m expecting it to happen. And guess what? We should expect it to happen. And so we’ve tried to really put a good, at least I would say to put action plans in place and to then prepare our staff team for those people who are more on the front lines for our campus pastors and others. So our director of counseling, because usually he ends up being brought in, you know, to all that, or our pastor of counseling, and I end up being in a lot of those conversations. Not necessarily with whatever’s happening but just in helping in coaching and kind of setting up, you know, the plans. And some of that’s again, beforehand where you’re preparing people for when this type of thing comes, and then some of it is when they need advice. And I think we have at least really set up some good action plans in place. And the thing that has been most gratifying in that is when now our staff members that find themselves in a situation, they immediately, they’ll call us and say, okay, I’ve done this, this, this and this. And you’re like, great, you’re doing great, you got it, you know? That’s when you kind of know…

Amy Whitfield: [00:18:43] And again, even as I say that I could get a call tomorrow and there’s something that is incredibly difficult. So we know in some ways that the Lord goes before us in that and we have to really trust. But that’s been, I think, an important thing to be able to set up. Now our, as you mentioned, like, there were some things, particularly our weekend services team, they’re incredible. And I just walked into that and said, you guys are doing great, keep at it. And that’s pretty much it, you know, and I love that. I mean they’re so wonderful that I really get to just worship with my family and be a part of things, and that is because there’s just they’re so incredible at what they do, and that is a real joy.

Jason Hamrock: [00:19:36] Yeah. Finding good people. Okay, I want to turn the corner a little bit. Let’s talk a little bit about Summit Church. You guys are a big church, with a big footprint. I mean, you’re in Raleigh, North Carolina. Raleigh, Durham. I mean, there are a lot of churches all over the place.

Amy Whitfield: [00:19:53] Yes.

Jason Hamrock: [00:19:53] How do you guys, do you try and separate yourself from other churches, or do you just try to be authentic to who you are and what you’re about? Or what’s the strategy there?

Amy Whitfield: [00:20:04] Yeah, I mean, we have great relationships with churches in our area, whether that’s through friendships, partnerships, networks, or we are connected with our State Baptist Convention or our local association. So we’ll have things that we’re doing cooperating with other people for the purpose of the mission. But in some ways, we just try to be who we are. We have some very clear things we put in front of our members to focus on sending, on, you know, multiplication, whether that’s with their small groups or whatever. We really try, I mean, at the end of every service, whoever is sort of closing it out ends with, you know, Summit family, you are sent. The idea that they’re living sent all week long. So that is kind of in the DNA, and it’s there in every campus, you know, for every experience, no matter what. But we know that there are other great mission-focused churches as well, and we just want to be a part of that. But we really try to focus on, we point to international missions, we focus on evangelism a lot, we focus on people finding where they can be, you know, living sent wherever they are. We say we want to make a movement of disciple-making disciples in RD and around the world. So that’s our mission.

Jason Hamrock: [00:21:35] So, yeah, I like that because you’re just equipping the ninety-nine to go get the one.

Amy Whitfield: [00:21:40] Yes.

Jason Hamrock: [00:21:41] And do you do much of you guys going after the one?

Amy Whitfield: [00:21:46] Yes. I mean, we have tons of things that are, like we have programs and things that are going all the time, so it’s a real mix. I mean, we have lots of stuff that is happening at our churches. We have men’s ministry, women’s ministry, we have all kinds of things for families and kids, but we are trying to constantly equip people through their small groups or through their serving teams with local partners all over the triangle. Before I was on staff, I had a lot of friends that were there, I worked with people from Summit and other spaces, but I wasn’t even at the Summit. And everywhere I went in the triangle, I was at a church that was about five minutes from my house at the time, but everywhere I went in the triangle, you could almost predict that something good was happening if there was someone from Summit involved. People would say, I’m a member at the Summit. And so there was that reputation among the community, and in the region already. And so in some ways, it’s trying to just keep infusing that, especially as new people come.

Amy Whitfield: [00:22:57] We also have really laid out, for our church, a real value in an initiative toward ethnic unity. So to really demonstrate a desire to reflect the community that is around us. And so we have some of our campuses that are more ethnically diverse than others, depending honestly on where they are. But the goal is not to say, well, we just want to, you know, be diverse for that for the sake of it. But to really model unity among people, and not just going back, you know, you come in on Sunday and then you go back to your communities, so there’s been a lot of work toward that among our people as well. But a lot of it is just trying to just be who we are, you know?

Jason Hamrock: [00:23:47] Yeah. I so appreciate… So how are some of the things that you do as the leader of the communications team, how do you help the ministries in articulating that message? Are there tools that you provide so that the ninety-nine is equipped? Or is it just mostly like, come on, people from the stage, go, you know?

Amy Whitfield: [00:24:11] Yeah. No, I mean, a lot of what our team does then is to turn around and think like, what’s every touchpoint that that people are going to get. So trying to make sure that our messaging strategy is fully integrated, that what they get from the stage, you know, again, as I said, our sermon is live streamed, but then other parts of the service are handled locally, you know, announcements and things like that. So what’s coming from the sermon matches what they’re hearing from their campus leaders, which matches what they get in churchwide emails and campus emails, and matches their interactions with campus pastors or the small group guide that goes out, you know? So a lot of what our team does is, whether it’s I mean, obviously social media and, you know, emails, things like that, churchwide emails come from us. But there are other places, I mean, there’s an adult discipleship team that equips the small groups. So I’m in communication with them, here’s some language that we’re using, here are phrases that we’re using, here’s something that’s going to be said in the sermon or something that we’re going to cover. So we’re talking to them, we’re talking to Next Gen, kind of like that one that I just said I missed where we didn’t get full circle and get them in. But to try, and what we want is for there to be a seamless communication experience from members that if we have something we want them to hear and to know that we are immersing them in that language.

Jason Hamrock: [00:25:50] Oh, I love that, that’s a really important nugget for everybody to hear because we’re all in these silos. You can be in these silos where, you know, because all these ministries are doing their thing and it’s really important that there’s consistent communication because it’s like that old adage that it takes seven touch points for marketing to happen well. Well, you have that under your roof.

Amy Whitfield: [00:26:13] Yeah, and it works in both directions, right? So we will, first of all, our teaching team is very open-handed, and so we know at least, you know, some people know and participate in the discussion or give feedback before the sermon. So it works in both directions, sometimes it’s this is going to be covered this week, so we want to make sure everyone is prepared to be saying the same thing. Other times it may be that I see a manuscript of the sermon beforehand and I get an opportunity to say, hey, this is amazing what you’re saying. Here is a phrase that we’ve been using, can we change this sentence to make a reference to the whole disciple, you know, or whatever? So then that way we make sure that what’s being said down kind of at the grassroots is also being said at the stage, and what’s being said on the stage is being said down at the grassroots.

Jason Hamrock: [00:27:11] So it’s the conduit that’s there’s no blockage, there’s no off limits, it’s back and forth. I love that, that’s good stuff. Wow.

Bart Blair: [00:27:20] It’s the first time we’ve ever used the word blockage in a podcast. I’m sorry, that just stood out to me. I have Metamucil jokes coming, and I’m just going to stop.

Amy Whitfield: [00:27:33] I’m glad I could provide that.

Bart Blair: [00:27:35] Sorry. Sorry. Okay, I told you I was just going to pipe in and be funny every once in a while, Amy.

Amy Whitfield: [00:27:41] You’ve got to have that in a podcast. Yes.

Jason Hamrock: [00:27:43] That’s funny.

Bart Blair: [00:27:44] Hey, I’m watching the clock, and I want to know, Amy, if you’ll share with us, you know, who you are learning from. Who do you listen to? Do you have books that you’ve read? Podcasts? I do want to mention this, I’m just going to say this, and I’m going to put it on the podcast. You talked a little bit, or you’ve talked actually quite a bit about your experience in crisis management, and crisis response. And what I would like to get you to do now is to say, yes, you will come back on our podcast on another date and we’ll actually do a whole conversation about crisis response. Because I really believe you have a lot of experience there, you’ve obviously put a plan together for your church, and I think those that are listening to our podcast would, having a little masterclass on how to build a plan in their own church would be very helpful. So if you’ll say yes.

Amy Whitfield: [00:28:38] Yes.

Bart Blair: [00:28:38] Okay, so we’ll do that again.

Amy Whitfield: [00:28:40] I would love to do that!

Bart Blair: [00:28:41] We’ll schedule that sometime in the upcoming months, we’d love to do that. But I’d love to know, like, how are you learning to get better at your job?

Amy Whitfield: [00:28:50] Oh man, so I will tell you, I’m a little bit, I don’t always do the things that are kind of typical. I have certain podcasts that I will catch when I can. You know, everybody loves to listen to like Carey Nieuwhof and some other, you know, leadership podcasts. I love a lot of what Katie Allred and the Church Communications folks do. But I am much more of a, I love to learn from watching great leaders, and I’m a big history person, so I love great stories. I love history, I’m a big fan of documentaries, documentary-style podcasts, and things like that. I learn more from watching something like, you know, the American Experience on PBS, or listening to interviewers interviewing anyone who’s really great at what they do and just kind of, whether it’s learning from their mistakes, or learning from, you know, the examples. So that’s, I mean, it’s a little bit different than a lot of folks might do, but that’s what I end up doing a lot, biographies, things like that.

Jason Hamrock: [00:30:07] I’m sort of similar, and I actually learn a lot just by talking with other churches. Because, you know, not that they’re experts, it’s just together we’re going back and forth. I’m like, oh, that worked for you. I do a lot of that.

Amy Whitfield: [00:30:17] Yeah, and then you did this.

Bart Blair: [00:30:23] Excellent. Well, Amy, really appreciate you agreeing to spend time with us, you obviously have a ton on your plate in the church. And you know, what we didn’t mention is that you actually do co-host another podcast that you’ve been doing for eight, almost nine years. SBC Weekly, is that what it’s called?

Amy Whitfield: [00:30:41] SBC This Week.

Bart Blair: [00:30:42] SBC This Week.

Amy Whitfield: [00:30:43] Yes, a very niche audience, it’s for Southern Baptist churches to kind of keep track of what’s going on in the cooperative work. But yeah, it’s been going on for a long time, so.

Bart Blair: [00:30:56] Yeah, yeah, that’s very cool, we appreciate that. If people wanted to get in touch with you or just find out more about Summit or what you’re doing at the church, how can they connect with you?

Amy Whitfield: [00:31:05] Yeah. So I’m on a sort of semi-hiatus from social media in that I don’t post much, but I am always listening and watching because you can’t work in communications and not. So my Twitter handle is ACWhit, and my direct messages are open so people can reach out to me there, and that’s a great way to connect. But most of my energies in terms of my public stuff, I’ve been working on some books and things like that and then the podcast as well, but definitely, folks can message me on Twitter.

Bart Blair: [00:31:45] What does the C stand for in the acwhit?

Amy Whitfield: [00:31:47] Caroline.

Bart Blair: [00:31:49] Caroline Okay, Amy Caroline, all right. Sorry, I just had to ask when I hear a middle initial in there.

Amy Whitfield: [00:31:53] That’s alright, that’s great.

Bart Blair: [00:31:55] Hey, Jason, Amy mentioned our friend Katie Allred and the Church Communications team, and I think that this podcast episode is going to drop before The Church Communications Conference. Can you tell our audience a little bit about what’s happening with The Church Communications Conference?

Jason Hamrock: [00:32:14] It’s coming up in Nashville, on September 21st and 22nd, I believe, and so Katie and I are hosting that.

Amy Whitfield: [00:32:22] So you are, I didn’t even realize that, that’s awesome. I mean I’ve been getting all the stuff from it, and I’m from Nashville, so that’s my home and love it.

Jason Hamrock: [00:32:31] Oh, all right, all right. Yes, we’re pumped about this, and I think the, yeah, I don’t know when this is going to drop, but yeah, you want to be a part of that. We’re so excited, we’ve been working on all the stuff that we’re going to roll out, and we got some curriculum that’s going to be rolling out, I’m super pumped about that. And our guests, our speaker lineup is like through the roof awesome. So it’s going to be a lot of fun, Nashville on the 21st and 22nd of September.

Amy Whitfield: [00:32:56] Very cool.

Bart Blair: [00:32:57] All right. Yeah. I hope to see a bunch of you there. Hey, thanks again for tuning in to the show. Amy, thanks again for being our guest. If you haven’t subscribed wherever you’re listening to this podcast, make sure you do that. And if you’re not watching on our YouTube channel, you can go over and you can actually see Amy’s reaction to my conversation about Blockage and Metamucil, which might make it worth watching it on YouTube worthwhile. And we always post a question in the comment section on our YouTube, and we’d love to have some dialog with you, it’s a question about something that was in the conversation. So if you’re watching on our YouTube channel, make sure that you respond to that question, and let’s have some dialog. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of the Missional Marketing Podcast.