Building A Strong Volunteer Team For Your Church | Dan Reiland

Jason Hamrock: [00:00:11] Hey, Dan, welcome to the show. How have you been?

Dan Reiland: [00:00:15] Good, Bart, it’s been a little while. Bart and Jason, I should say, but I’m doing great. Probably the biggest thing since we’ve last connected is my daughter, who has a three-year-old, my three-year-old granddaughter, [inaudible], who we love, also recently gave birth to identical twin boys. So we are having a blast, the family joke is when we’re honest, we can’t tell them apart.

Jason Hamrock: [00:00:44] Oh, congratulations, Grandpa.

Dan Reiland: [00:00:47] Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.

Jason Hamrock: [00:00:48] Oh, wow, wow, that’s life-changing. Yeah, you go from 1 to 3, wow.

Dan Reiland: [00:00:54] So she has now, Mackenzie now has three under three. And I’m telling you, she’s tough. I mean, feeding two, waking two, changing two, chasing two. I mean, they’re seven months old now, and oh my gosh.

Jason Hamrock: [00:00:54] Wow.

Dan Reiland: [00:01:07] The beauty of being a papa, you know, the beauty of being a papa is you hand it back and see you.

Jason Hamrock: [00:01:14] Shake them up a little bit. That’s awesome. Well, thanks for being on the show, you’ve been on before. I just really love leaning into your wisdom and your advice and your years of experience in ministry, so I’m excited about our topic today because you have been around for a minute I think, or two I think.

Dan Reiland: [00:01:36] For a minute? I started in the Jurassic era. Fortunately, I still have a lot of life and energy in me and they’re letting me still be in the game, so I’m going to stay in as long as they’ll let me.

Jason Hamrock: [00:01:46] Absolutely. Absolutely. So for our listeners, just give a little bit of background, your story, and kind of your overview of all the different hats you’ve worn in ministry.

Dan Reiland: [00:01:56] Sure. Well, staying on the personal side, that’s a good heart connection, I’ve been married 42 years to my lovely wife, Patty, who everybody loves. They tolerate me, they love her. And two grown children, I’ve just mentioned my grandkids, so that’s good. Matching number of years, 42 years in ministry, I started when I was 12. Right, Right.

Jason Hamrock: [00:02:19] Yeah, that’s right.

Dan Reiland: [00:02:19] To your question, I’ve been an executive pastor basically for about 20 years with John Maxwell, and 20 years for Kevin Myers, and in the middle there, a little bit of overlap with John. Enjoying days traveling the country you know the cassette tapes, you know your young whips, Google that. But just you know a whole host of teaching, writing, and coaching churches around the country. I still get to do that. But my primary, second chair role for decades has been executive pastor. And of course, you know what that, the leading staff, ministry, architecture, leadership development, but just a fully orbed connection to the church. Bottom line, I love the church, I’m called and I’m still having a blast.

Jason Hamrock: [00:03:12] Praise God for that. And let’s hope it keeps going on because you bring a lot to the table. So the topic we kind of want to dive into today is, there’s been a lot of conversation, a lot of noise around this, and that is, you know, building and engaging a volunteer team. And so you recently wrote a blog post about it, and there’s a lot to that blog post we want to kind of dive into. But why are volunteer teams considered a felt need for the local church?

Dan Reiland: [00:03:43] Yeah, it really is, Bart, in a big way, I think we’re post-COVID, I try not to be the guy talking about Covid all the time. But I think we’re post-COVID, and churches are growing again, it’s healthy, and there’s a great need in North America in particular, but the effects of it are still real. I don’t know a church that doesn’t feel the pressure when you consider the things that have transpired, things like, you know, church and church cultures changed. People view their time differently post-pandemic. Habits have changed, we all know that church is more an option than a lifestyle, and a hybrid church is a good thing. But it has changed everything, families are busier than ever, travel ball, we get it. I think Christian culture has adapted to that hybrid format, we were so good at it, that they go, we like it. And so when you translate that to the new, and I don’t know really what the actual number is 1.7 times a month, 1.4 times a month, whatever it is, we know it’s less. You don’t have to do anything more than the math to realize that you’ve got to have a minimum of 2 to 3 times the volunteers to put them into teams to cover the rotation as in 2019 and before, that’s the pressure.

Jason Hamrock: [00:05:09] So it does become kind of a felt need because you’re dealing with people who are super busy, yet you need those volunteers to, you know, make the show happen, so to speak.

Dan Reiland: [00:05:23] Right. Right. And, you know, and you don’t want to fall into the traps and the things you don’t want to do and making them numbers and just, you know, filling spots. And so it’s, I don’t want to oversimplify it because culture is different, the church is different, we feel things different, you see things different, but in some ways, you could oversimplify and just say the pressure’s rising because the need is greater because you need at least twice as many, and that by itself is a game changer. And that’s the answer to your question, that’s why there’s such a felt need.

Jason Hamrock: [00:05:52] Yeah. Okay. All right, so I want to dive into some points, and I want to make sure I make this statement, that a lot of our listeners are in the communications department. Not specifically only that, but a lot of them are. So you might think to yourself as a comm director, well, I don’t really need volunteers, that’s for children’s ministry or whatnot. And that couldn’t be further from the truth that you shouldn’t be thinking that at all, right, that’s a myth, you want to engage volunteers. And my biggest take on that is because God has gifted people in your congregation with tools that you can tap into. And so from that lens, I would like to kind of dive into, there are five points that you make in your article. And so if you wouldn’t mind, let’s just go through each one of these because I think these are really relevant for obviously people that are in the, you know, the ministry side, but people that are in the operation side.

Dan Reiland: [00:06:44] Absolutely, on the comm part as well, or creative, or tech. Sometimes I think going back to just the number, sometimes certain teams and departments think, you know, that’s not really my thing, I don’t really need to go that route. I remember having a conversation with somebody in the, you know, the music development part of the church, and studio work, and all the musicians. And they said, you know, I can’t even have a volunteer because what I do is way too technical. You talk about, you know, 20, and 30, and 40, 50, and 100 volunteers. I’d be lucky to have one who could do what I do. I said, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, then get one. I said, you’re right, you’re right, they’re super technical, they’re super skilled, but we would never want you to have 12 if you had one as a game changer, two is like nirvana, that’s an old word. So I just want to encourage as well for those who might not feel like it’s your deal or your thing, even in support fields, sure it is, you just need maybe a more technical skill, and there are less of them. That’s okay.

Jason Hamrock: [00:08:01] Yeah. Yes, Yes, so through that lens, let’s go through these five. The first one is, the key points of this, start with a vision-based invitation. What do you mean by that?

Dan Reiland: [00:08:14] Yeah, I think on this one, the vision-based invitation, I think leadership always starts internally, and we have to do our best to not allow pressure to get the best of us. And pressure, you know, and timing…You know, I call it pace and pressure, or speed and pressure, that often squeezes out of the margins, our ability to love and care for the people. And so it goes task, it goes task oriented quickly. And when you go task-oriented, vision is gone, expediency wins the day, and then you stop doing the things that help you be vision based and caring about the people. Which is, you know, you always want to walk more for the people than from the people, that’s where it starts. Because it’s not about you and not about them, in a sense, it’s about the bigger vision. And again, watching to be careful that you’re not desperate because that pressure will leak.

Dan Reiland: [00:09:08] So here’s the big picture, I think I went off in the woods there for a second, Bart. But here’s the big picture to that idea, is a vision-based invitation invites people to participate in something larger than they could create or envision on their own. That’s a big deal, that’s a great invitation. Like come be part of something that’s bigger than you, bigger than me, bigger than us, and join in on it, and that starts with a vision. It’s, well, I’ll stop there are some little sub-points I would add in, but let me stop there for a second.

Bart Blair: [00:09:44] Let me share something with you. I actually, I heard this quote this morning and I texted it to myself, so I’m literally going to read it off my phone, and I think it’s appropriate for this part of our conversation. It’s said by some person named Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, I have no idea how to pronounce this person’s name. You see, you’re smart, Dan, you know who this person is. This is what he said, “If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up people to collect wood and don’t assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea.” I love that. Isn’t that awesome?

Dan Reiland: [00:10:23] That’s so good. That’s so good.

Bart Blair: [00:10:26] Create a longing. You know, I think as church leaders, this is so critical, is that we do often see the spreadsheet of roles and responsibilities that we need to fill, but beyond that is the opportunity to invite people into helping the church accomplish its mission. There’s another famous leader that I once heard talking about vision, and he said, you know, people need to see themselves in the future and they need to like what they see. And so as you’re casting a vision for people, you need to cast a vision, they need to see themselves in that future and they need to like what they see. And so that’s a big part, I think, of rallying volunteers to be more than just bodies that are checking in on Planning Center because I’m scheduled this week to hold this door or to pour this coffee or to lead this small group in children’s ministry or what have you, but people who get how their participation really helps the church accomplish its mission and fulfill its vision for the future.

Dan Reiland: [00:11:26] Absolutely. And you said it so well, so poetically, I mean, it was great. And I think that practical translation is you know, you never start recruiting…I’ll use that word, but let me qualify that in a second, that’s not always a great word. You never start recruiting with a job description or a task, it’s just what you said, Jason, it’s a vision, it’s something bigger than you, it’s a preferred future. I think I should make a comment on recruiting, I use the word inviting, that’s a better word. I still like to throw in recruiting because that’s the honest word, but I realize that’s not acceptable, it’s kind of an old word, you know? But I like it, and I think some leaders like it because it’s honest and it assumes you’re not going, hey, you know, come join us if you feel like it, whatever. You know, it’s really like, no, God’s got a place for you, we want you, we’d love to see you step into it. Not to our agenda, but God’s agenda for you. And that’s when it becomes big when it’s the vision, it’s about what God has for them, all of those things combined.

Jason Hamrock: [00:12:33] Well, that’s the second point then, is to be aware of any potential hindrances to recruiting. So give us a couple, what does that mean, and what would those be?

Dan Reiland: [00:12:45] There’s a lot, I think I’ve made all the mistakes over many years. But I think, well, here’s the one that I have fallen guilty of many, many times is I think, oh, they’re so busy, I don’t want to bother them. And I’m robbing them, and I’ve had to learn over the years I’m robbing them of an invitation, I’m robbing them of something God’s designed, and I had to sort of get over bothering them. I’m not bothering them at all, if I do it in a grace-filled way, a gracious way, an inviting way, an attractive way, they have the freedom to say no. I had to learn to let them say no. How silly was I that I was saying no for them by saying I don’t want to bother them?

Dan Reiland: [00:13:36] Another one is failing to see their potential, and I’d probably be stronger in that one, I think I do see people’s potential. But some of the listeners, they might size them up, you know, judge a book by the cover, they might kind of miss something there because they didn’t see the potential that comes from training, or some who have been very honest about insecurities. Another one would be a fear of being turned down, they just don’t want to be turned down. I think a couple more, this one is a little bit of an indictment on some of us, but let’s just be honest with it, is that pattern or the history of invite and abandon? I think sometimes we bring them in, they say, yes, we sign them up, we say here you go, and we’re gone. And it’s not, I don’t mean it to indict something like from the dark side, because the leaders are so busy they run to the next. But that’s why there’s you know, systems and different things in place to help us make sure we’re caring for the team.

Dan Reiland: [00:14:38] I’ll give one more, inviting, or recruiting, or I like discovering, helping people discover their place on the team. The same people, over and over again, because they’re easy and they say yes. And we really, there’s plenty of people out there, we just need to go ask them to allow us to come alongside and help them discover what God’s got in mind.

Jason Hamrock: [00:15:03] You said, just a second ago there, though, it’s like easy to like, set it, and forget it almost as a leader. So your third one is, to make a personal investment. I’m kind of guessing that’s into the people.

Dan Reiland: [00:15:15] Yes, absolutely, absolutely. And I think there’s a process both, in the process of helping somebody discover and join a team, and then when they’re getting on the team and then staying in. There’s really three, you know, specific kinds of investments, the investment to pour enough time into them to get to know them, to care about them as an individual, and then actually, you know, what you might call for a staff member onboarding. You have to onboard everybody, you know, and to do that in a legitimate fulfilling, you know it covers all the bases way. And then there’s ongoing training, so there is a personal investment, it takes time, they need to know you care and that’s where it starts.

Jason Hamrock: [00:16:05] On a side note, how often, like, if you had to tell one of your staff people that that lean on volunteers a lot, what would you say, how much time should they spend investing into volunteers versus actually programming?

Dan Reiland: [00:16:21] That’s a tough question to answer, Bart, because I think there’s a cumulative effect on two sides of the spectrum. One is the cumulative, it’s almost like a bank account, the longer you’ve invested in, the more that time multiplies and you don’t have to spend as much time. They know you, they trust you, there’s a bank account, there’s a relational equity that’s established, that’s from us to them. And then from, I don’t want to say them to us, that sounds so terrible. But the investment of time upfront can diminish some because of that equity that’s developed on the other side. It’s their level of maturity, as they mature, as they understand, as they realize it’s not all about me, someone doesn’t have to be by me all the time. At some point, I’m going to go find and help other people join the team. Between the two of those, the level of time is still there, and still has to be kept up, but the points of contact can be briefer and farther apart and still just as meaningful, you know, months and years down the road. Where upfront the investment is pretty hefty. I don’t know that I can give Bart, actually a formula because everybody and every church is different, but it’s more upfront for sure.

Bart Blair: [00:17:43] We just recently, you know, mentioned I think before we started recording, that we recently interviewed a friend of ours named Mary Anne Sibley, who coaches churches and works with them to help develop their volunteer teams. And one of the things that she really has a heart for making sure that churches do, is that volunteer leaders, those that are leading, see their role as being more than just a get-the-task-done leader, but to see people actually growing in their faith journey. As leaders, the reason we should want people serving in our church is not just to help us get the job done because it’s good for them to be using their gifts and their talents in the context of ministry. I mean, that’s the way that God has wired us and made us. And so as a leader of volunteers, whether you’re a staff member leading volunteers, or you’re a volunteer yourself, leading other volunteers, there’s a shepherding responsibility, a shepherding aspect that you have. And I think that, in and of itself, is what will really demonstrate your commitment to them. And actually, I think it makes for healthier teams, and it makes for more longevity in people’s ability and willingness to stay with the team that they’ve been asked to join.

Dan Reiland: [00:18:58] No question. No question. Yep.

Jason Hamrock: [00:19:02] Okay, so now the fourth one, we’ve covered three so far. The fourth one is to make training a top priority. How do you do that?

Dan Reiland: [00:19:10] Yes, I love this question, I’m a trainer at heart. I love both the equipping and developing sides. I’m going to actually stop there for a second, we have to give extra stuff that’s not in the post, right? I think it’s important in this arena to distinguish the difference between equipping and developing. And equipping is, you can build a great church on equipping, I think legacy churches include developing. A couple of simple differences are that equipping trains people for a very specific ministry task, you know, an usher, how to do CPR, a small group leader, how to lead a great discussion, and your training for a specific task. Development pours into the individual so they’re a bigger, better, stronger person. Equipping is a transaction, you know, I’ll train you how to do this if you’ll do this, there is nothing wrong with that. And then development is more of a gift, equipping is based on the church’s agenda. Obviously great, the vision, and the great commission. Development is based on the person’s agenda. What do they need? Where are they going? You can see the difference, and obviously, there’s a blend and blur between the two. But smart churches know the difference to make sure they have both equipping environments and developmental because they’re completely different in nature, they feel different, they look different, all that kind of thing. But the groups of people need both they just need them at the right times and in the right way.

Dan Reiland: [00:20:41] So back to the topic of training, overall, people want to be successful, they want to win, and I think volunteer teams want to win in the same way. I mean, when I’m rooting here for the Braves or the Falcons, I think I don’t know if they’re going to win, but we sure want them to win. Right? I mean, you know, people are the same way. And I think right underneath that, we can’t expect, we can’t assume I should say, we can’t assume that volunteers, one, know what we expect, or that they know how. Something might be simple to the leader, but it doesn’t mean they know how and it doesn’t mean they know what you expect them to do. So that’s at the top of training, right underneath the fact that you care and that they know it.

Dan Reiland: [00:21:31] I think there are some things, a couple of three points, that help training be worth going to. So if we can be blunt, I think one of the worst things we can do is have somebody volunteer their time, show up, show they care, say, hey, count on me, I want to help, I want to be part of this grand vision. And they show up, and we’re ill-prepared, the room’s a mess, the coffee’s cold, and the training isn’t relevant, I think that’s disrespectful. I think we should, I always call it, you know, this is an old-fashioned term, but you know, linen and four colors, you know? It just ought to be really well done, not necessarily taking too much time, but well done. Things like this relevant, it ought to be relevant. If you’re using this same training you were using in 2017, freshen it up, you know, make sure it’s relevant. The things we said and taught in 2019 to 2023, they shouldn’t be the same words, they shouldn’t be the same style, it’s not the same. Another one is practical, I think people really want us, and this is where I have a lot of flaws because I teach leadership based a lot on principle, but the longer I do this, the more I know, just talk about how you do it, speak directly into the actual responsibilities, it is so appreciated. And one more is inspirational, and again, once like we’ve talked, all three of us. I counted three people, but I’m one of the people on the screen, I’m good at math. Yeah, make it stop. It’s really important to not just start with the vision, but keep reminding of the vision, and remind of the progress of the vision. And of course, we know how to do that, tell stories of changed lives. You know, after equipping and training and all that’s gone on, then there are briefer huddles that, you know, go on throughout the year for, you know, quick connects and communication, what’s happening, what’s changed, how we do it. In those moments, we’ve got to tell stories to keep them like, oh my gosh, it’s working, you know? So yeah.

Jason Hamrock: [00:23:51] I love that. I love that training because it’s not just training on how to do the job, but it’s the bigger vision of why we do this job and what we’re doing as a movement of a church, and what we’re doing as a movement of God in people’s lives. I love that, and I think we just tend to gloss over that because of time.

Dan Reiland: [00:24:11] It is it’s time, everybody’s busy. Yeah.

Bart Blair: [00:24:15] Well, our tendency as trainers is to focus on the what and the how and not enough on the why. And I think it goes back to point number one, which is, well, you’ve invited people to be a part of this team based on a vision that you’ve cast for them. And as you’re training them, you need to continue to keep the vision in front of them using those training opportunities. You know, you mentioned telling the stories of life change, and Jason just about gave you an amen. He was getting close there.

Jason Hamrock: [00:24:44] I was like, amen, brother.

Bart Blair: [00:24:46] Yeah, I mean telling stories of people whose lives have been impacted by the ministry, by the volunteers, by the engagement. And I think that that’s, you know, again, keeping the vision in front of people should be part of the training, not just the nuts and bolts of how to get the job done.

Dan Reiland: [00:25:02] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Jason Hamrock: [00:25:04] Oh, so good. Oh, I love that training, top priority, start with the why. Why are we doing this? Okay, number five, number five is recognizing the value of systems. Okay, this is something I’m not very strong in, I’m okay, but there are other people that are really good at it. Talk to us about the value of systems.

Dan Reiland: [00:25:26] The value of systems. Well, I’m in your club, Bart, because I’m pretty good at designing them, I’m a little bit more on the people development side of the arena, but I’ve grown to respect systems for a lot of reasons. So let’s jump in. You know, I think first of all, sometimes we sort of resist systems because they don’t feel or sound spiritual, and we think that the Spirit and system compete. But the Spirit and system do not compete at all, systems just elevate the Spirit’s freedom to move farther and faster, really. And so we actually become more effective when we learn how to work with systems. And also, I think sometimes in my experience, especially in larger churches, we tend to overcomplicate our notion of what a system is. The truth of a good system is they’re actually simple at their most basic functional functionality, they make things simple and they are simple. If they’re not simple and they make things more complicated, you got a lousy system, you know, it’s fighting the very thing it’s supposed to do. So here are some of the valuable benefits that maybe you can test your systems with. One is that systems help you stay focused on the next steps, they’re not just a circular thing, a busy thing, and an endless thing. You know, everybody ought to know the direction they’re headed, you know, in the church, I don’t care if you’re 150 people, 100 people, or 10,000 people, what’s the direction toward maturity? What’s the direction? Personal maturity. What’s the direction toward the vision accomplishment together, individual, and corporate? And then what’s the next step? What’s the next step? Sometimes people say, well, I’ve come to the end of the pipeline, I’m already a leader. You know, what’s the next step? When you think, and don’t think anybody’s ever arrived. But if you think you do, all right, let’s just go there for a second. You are like, there’s nowhere else to go. And get that on a practical level, well, then, okay, let’s accept that for a moment, sort of. Then there’s the next person that needs to be reached, and the next person that needs to be reached, and the next person, just what’s the next step?

Dan Reiland: [00:27:32] Here’s another one, systems help you follow up more consistently. The longer I lead, the more I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit and prayer and vision and all of that, because it’s so important to bring hope. The more also believe that churches that win over the long haul, the churches that get blocking and tackling, the churches that are consistent in the fundamentals of execution, they just show up and do it and get over ourselves about, I’m bored. It’s not about us being bored, it’s about us helping people. And so I admit it, I get bored teaching the same talk or doing the same thing, but it’s not about me, it’s about us together in a system helping the next person. And so being consistent in those things helps engagement, it helps training, it helps communication, it helps the outcomes.

Dan Reiland: [00:28:26] One more I would toss out, and we can talk about it if you want, is that systems help us scale the volunteer base. That’s just a fact where you might be a skilled recruiter or inviter or you pick the word that you like, you might be really skilled at it, but you have a limit. Everybody has a limit, you can only do so many, whereas systems help you move from bringing 1 on the team or 10 on the team, to bringing 50 on the team, or 100 on the team. And systems are really your friend, you still have to keep them warm and keep them having an elegant human nature to them, but they just help you reach more people, that’s all.

Jason Hamrock: [00:29:09] Well, and I think number four does kind of combine with number five because not everybody learns at the same speed or capacity as you might. Right? You’re training people, you have to recognize that constantly training them on the systems is pretty important you know, and I’ve learned that a lot. Right? I have to be trained a lot on certain things because I’m just not gifted. But I’m also, I’m gifted in other areas that other people aren’t. So there’s that recognition of it, where you’re constantly training, that’s important.

Dan Reiland: [00:29:39] Our HR director would be Barb, we love her to death, she would be laughing right now. She has retrained me so many times, I’m embarrassed to say it, in our Paycom system for the health care thing and the HSA card. She’s going, Dan, the cows know how to do this. What is wrong with you? You know, and I’m sorry, I don’t get it. You know?

Jason Hamrock: [00:30:01] And so bless your heart.

Dan Reiland: [00:30:03] Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. But then again, I’m really pretty good at some other things, so you’re so right, some people just need a little more help.

Jason Hamrock: [00:30:13] That’s right, never let up on it. Yeah. Yep.

Bart Blair: [00:30:16] Dan, is there anything that we haven’t asked you today that you wish we would have asked you?

Dan Reiland: [00:30:23] Oh, How do I comb my awesome flock of hair? I don’t know. I mean, you know, there’s one thing if we have a minute, I would throw into the mix because it speaks to the bigger picture of the most practical element, which is the feeling of pressure, you know, pace and pressure. And that is, what we teach our team is the concept of right-sizing. You know, if you teach the right-sized problems, and right-sized problems because if you look at a problem and think it’s insurmountable, it’s insurmountable. If you look at a problem and you think, I can’t do it, you can’t do it. And so we call that supersizing a problem rather than right-sizing it, and so it begins with giving a definition.

Dan Reiland: [00:31:10] I tell you a story. Now, this one is, Bart, you mentioned earlier, it is in the more common area, particularly in children’s ministry, but we can adapt this in any direction as we talked about the music tech guy. Okay, you don’t need five, but you need one. You know, that’s right sizing. In this case, it was coming up on Easter, and this really quite gifted and wonderful children’s director was just in a panic. It was three weeks to Easter and they said, I need all these volunteers, I need all these volunteers, I need a ton of volunteers. And I said, okay, just, you know, take a breath. How many do you need? I need a ton. I said, all right, what I want you to do, I want you to just take an hour, take a day, and come back, I want you to count. I want you to go count how many you need. And the person looked at me like, okay, you know. And so they did that, came back and they had a number, 20. And I said, fantastic, all right, you need 20 volunteers to fill in everything for Easter, all the services? Yes. I said, can you recruit 20 in 3 weeks? No. Okay, you know, I said, can you recruit 15? And think a no is coming out again, again, I think there was still frustration in there, another no was coming out. So I said, all right, keep the right sizing going, can you do 15? And I jumped in and said, meaning one a day, five days a week, two days off, for three weeks. Yes, I can. And then you think, well, wait a minute, there were 20, that’s only 15. So I said, do you have a high-capacity volunteer or two who could go recruit five people for you in three weeks? Yes, I can. That’s right sizing. And we have we’ve helped so many people stop panicking, what’s the real need, break it down into pieces, figure it out, and they go, I can do this.

Bart Blair: [00:33:21] That was worth the price of admission right there, that was fantastic. I’m glad we didn’t ask the question that you wanted us to ask, but we asked you what question we should be asking because I think that was good, that was fantastic.

Dan Reiland: [00:33:38] Maybe you’ll have to say something up front so they’ll listen all the way to the end.

Bart Blair: [00:33:45] I’m going to tell them, Dan said you better listen to the very end. Okay, I’ll put that in the intro, Dan said. Well, Jason, do you want to tie things up here?

Jason Hamrock: [00:33:54] Yeah. No, I just so appreciate your wisdom and the fact that you care about, obviously, about God, and the kingdom, and the church, and moving it forward as you sort of wind down your career a little bit there as we were talking about before. And yet, you just have all this knowledge, so thank you very much for coming on this podcast, and sharing some of that in-depth knowledge that you have. And just, we really appreciate you, we appreciate you coming on board.

Dan Reiland: [00:34:25] That’s very kind. And I quite enjoy both of you and what you’re doing. And I know it’s extra time, effort, and energy that you really don’t have to do. So thank you for helping the kingdom move forward. And you know what’s really, really funny? And if we go over time, you can clip this out, that’s okay. But it’s interesting, as I supposedly wind down a bit, a little less time at the church for a couple more years and more time into my coaching and consulting. Here’s the funny thing, my calendar is fuller now than ever, and I’m loving it. But let me tell you something that you two might be able to look forward to, anybody listening can. Here’s the difference, and it’s just, it’s like, oh my gosh, I’m born again. So for 40 years, my calendar has been filled essentially by other people. Now it’s full and over full, but I’m filling it. And I’m telling you, there’s something about that that’s just like, here we go, this is awesome. So I’m enjoying ministry, a different phase, and I’m loving it. But thank you again for the invite.

Jason Hamrock: [00:35:39] Oh, well, you’re welcome. We can’t wait to have you back on the show.

Bart Blair: [00:35:42] Yeah, that’s awesome. Thank you. Dan, Hey, thank you for tuning in to this week’s episode of the Missional Marketing podcast. As I always mention, if you haven’t subscribed, wherever you’re listening or if you’re watching on our YouTube channel, make sure that you do that. And hey, wouldn’t this be a great episode for you to leave us a five-star review, or a four-star review? We’re not interested in one, two, or three, just the fours and fives. Or you can leave us some comments on our YouTube channel if you found this content to be helpful, we’d love to dialog with you there. And on behalf of Dan and Jason, I’m Bart and we’re out of here.