A Master Class in Church Data & Engagement | Blue Van Dyke

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Blue shares with us some marketing strategies to use our data to engage those who may slip through the cracks of our churches

Podcast Notes

The Studio C

 

Podcast Transcription

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Well, hey, Blue, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today?

I’m awesome. Thank you. Thanks for having me today. I love it.

Oh, glad to have you. I’m excited about this conversation because this is about church growth and engagement. And everybody who’s listening to this to this podcast is typically church communications, executive pastors, and lead pastors, they need to hear this conversation. So before we get into those details, just kind of give everybody kind of a high-level view of your background and where you come from, and why you’re passionate about engagement.

Love it. So prior to working at Studio C, which is where I’m at right now, I was executive pastor at Christ Church of the Valley, a church here in Phoenix. But as a marketplace guy before that, right, I don’t know if I say this as an apology or whatever it is, but I was an MBA, not a Bible college guy, right? So I went to business school and entered the market. But I love, somehow those things have, only God has been able to do that, have fuzed together. But came out of grad school, and went to an international MBA program, basically MBA taught in a foreign language where I studied German, did a good chunk of my undergrad at a German university, and then grad school. But because of that, I was recruited out of grad school by a company called Daimler-Benz, a parent company of Mercedes-Benz. And I love it because I came out thinking I was a hotshot guru marketing guy, and I love it because there’s a way the market sure seems to humble you, and they’re like, nice kid, but let’s show you what this is all about. So spent the first, oh, six years or so of my career at Mercedes-Benz, this is in the late 90s, early 2000, where we were making a shift to some digital and some other areas. But I’ll tell you, and you’ll see this later as we talk about some engagement stuff, here was the biggest takeaway I had at Mercedes during my time over there was they said, hey, I know you think marketing is all about advertising and bringing new people in, they said, but the key to our success is taking our existing customers and getting them to bring new people in, so it was all around customer engagement. And the truth is, I stole that playbook and just ran it for my career after that.

But anyway, they also introduced me to digital. So during the early days, I helped, I started on a project to help look at Mercedes-Benz.com and what does this look like? We had hired digital agencies at the time, these were things like ad agencies but focused on the Internet. And so I jumped ship, I ended up joining that company, it’s a company called Proxy Com, and rode that wave for a little while, also, sort of the digital agency. And if you remember these, you and I have had conversations about it, that was in the Dot Com Era.

Yep.

All that’s good, bad, and ugly that goes along with it. So I rode that wave up down the other side, I was fortunate enough to come out sort of still intact and alive during the dot com bust. But here was the big takeaway, right, fairly large shop and our clients were folks like Toyota and Marriott and Chevron and etc… And here’s basically what we’d say to them, you are spending billions of dollars to advertise to everybody, right? Let us use this wacky thing called the Internet to help you understand who’s in the market, and we can target your messages better, you’ll get better conversion, pay less, all around, work better. That’s basically the sales pitch we sold for eight years straight. So ran that, came out the other side, and I was fortunate enough to have an exit so we sold the business, we are owned by a private equity firm. I was exhausted, to be quite honest, and I think I mentioned this to you, but on a personal note, I live here in the valley and I had committed to my wife that we’d have dinner together as a family. My home office was in L.A. So for the better part of eight years I commuted back and forth to L.A., and that’s just taxing. So I sold the business in 2007 and took a year off, which sounds insane but I would recommend it to everybody. So three goals when we took the year off, regroup with God, each other, and the kids. So I went on four or five mission trips, we went away and hung out together as a family for a summer to get out of sort of the routine, and then I coached high school baseball to regroup with the kids and do some of their things, and it was transformational.

So I came out of that and started a small venture capital company, which is all tech-centric businesses. But here was the basic gist, the basic plan that I’ve stolen and run since then was, to find a company doing something really well and figure out how to scale it for a lot of people. So you’ll see that today too, there’s a big piece to this, but ran that for another seven years. And then this sounds indulgent, but I took another year off. So my wife and I decided that year was so transformational, that every seven years we try to take a year off. And so long and short for this year off, I actually went to my local church which was CCV, and said something along the lines of like, hey, I don’t know if there’s a role for a business guy who loves Jesus, but if you do, I’m here, I’m yours. And so they brought me on, I was very fortunate, as the Executive Pastor. The plan was to stay for a year, but I ended up staying for five, and really my job there for the five years was to take all those things I learned, all the things I just mentioned from Mercedes, or from the digital agency, or from venture capital, and just figure out the church application of those. So really focused on growth, how do we do member engagement and use technology and personalization and all this to help grow the church? And that’s the play I ran at CCV for five years, left, decided to go back into the market, had actually invested in a small company up in Seattle, a digital advertising company, and then COVID hit. And I started getting a bunch of phone calls from churches and I loved them. And they were like, hey, we heard you speak at that conference, or on that podcast, we came out to visit you and you kept talking about knowing where your members are and all these good things. And hey, we lost our stage, we have no clue where our members are, we don’t know how to talk to them, we don’t know what’s happening, can you help? And so literally after about the 15th phone call like that, I decided, you know what, let’s see what we can do. And that’s why we spun up Studio C to kind of help churches with that idea of engaging their members.

Okay, so we’re here today. All right, so let’s kind of zoom back out. Before COVID, I think it’s safe to say that the big C church wasn’t growing, it was shrinking. Right? I mean, some churches were exploding, but a lot of them were not.

No doubt.

Then COVID happened and it did something funky, and good, better, and different, it happened. And so now we’re in kind of this after the fact, and what do you think is happening now? Why is the big C church, why was it not growing? Let’s get into some of that thing that you’re passionate about when it comes to member engagement, the old model just isn’t working, we’ve got to have a new model, talk to us about that.

Yeah, I think the model used to be this idea of, hey, members, just get people here to church and we’ll convert them. Somehow, with the weekend experience, there’ll be something about this conversion. And then all of a sudden when the weekend experience went away and the attractiveness of that experience went away, and then all of a sudden people started saying, what do I do, right? If I have to, if I can’t do church here, I can’t just bring people here and just show up, what happens? So then all of a sudden, a lot of people are not getting the message, they’re not getting the word, and the growth starts stagnant.

So I think what it did is it highlighted this idea that gathering together is absolutely important, but it can’t be the only thing, we’ve got to have this well-rounded idea of making disciples. To be honest, it’s just, it’s the fulfillment of the Great Commission, right? Which is to make disciples and send them out, and that’s how you’re going to grow. And I just saw this tie into the same thing we’ve been doing, which is, hey, if we can resource the members of our church to go out and be the church, then all of a sudden it doesn’t matter if a stage gets shut down, and you’ve multiplied your workforce incredibly large. So that’s what’s happened, I think a lot of it is this idea of just coming to church stopped, people found something to do. But then a lot of people weren’t necessarily equipped to continue on the work of the church without the stage, or without the building when it was intact, it was a big part of this.

Okay. So what you’re saying is it’s moving from just attendance, which was decreasing, to engagement. Talk to us, what does engagement mean?

Yeah, it’s a good call. Engagement, right now, it’s probably the most played word out there right now, right? Every podcast we turn on has something to say about engagement. So engagement to me, and I oversimplify things, it’s sort of a bad habit, but you take some complex and try to oversimplify it, it’s the things we hope people do because we’ve heard that when they do them, the probability of their heart transforming for the Lord goes way up, we can’t guarantee it. What we actually want, I love it because it’s really deep Christians that give me a harder time on this than seekers do, but we don’t care if you’re in a small group, we don’t care if you’re serving, what we do is we care that you do those because we know when you participate in those activities, then your heart starts to change. Right? I tease a little bit flippantly and I say, man, if Walgreens would invent a heart transformation pill, I wouldn’t have to do small group anymore, it’d be awesome, I could just go give people these little pills. But 2000 years of history and Jesus has shown us, that if people can do these things, something happens where their heart starts to transform. So for me, engagement is those things in your church that if you could encourage your members to participate because you believe when they do, they’ll start to open up and transform for Jesus, that’s engagement.

Hmm. Okay, so let’s kind of talk a little bit about that, you know, talk a little bit about Studio C, talk a little bit about how you use these digital tools because you can connect with people where they are in life, wherever they are, and we can move the needle a little bit. So…

Sure. Well, I’ll tell you the part where this came from, and how Studio C ties in. Back in my venture capital days, it was great, I would have companies come up and they present what they’re all about and it’s usually a PowerPoint that’s this thick and it goes on forever, and why they’re worth $1,000,000,000 today and all the stuff. And I usually used to stop during that process and I’d say, hey, can you just draw on a piece of paper what the customer journey is? Like, help me understand what their path is, and then I can understand where you as a business bring value. So I did the same thing at church, when I joined the church, I just said, what is it we’re supposed to do? And I created what I just call basically a member journey, which is modeled after a customer journey in the market. And so the idea for me as a church is our job as a church is to take people up here, I just like to call them not yet Christians, you can call them whatever you want, and we’re supposed to help them go through some spiritual journey so they spit out the bottom, fully committed follower of Christ, plug in your word, disciple, coach, leader, whatever you want. So all I said is, what is that journey? And once we’ve mapped the journey, how good are we at it? Can we even measure effectiveness? Can we help be intentional about it?

So what I said was there’s sort of three things, just like taking anybody else on a journey. I need to know where the people are. I need to know where they’re heading. And I need a way to tell them how to get there, directions, kind of like a big GPS system. If I’m going to tell you how to get to California from here in the valley, from Phoenix, I’ve got to know where you’re starting, I’ve got to know what your end destination is, and I need some way to tell you how to turn right, left, or where do you need to go? So that’s what we started with, and we just said as Studio C, let’s help all of our church clients know where their members are in the life cycle, match them intelligently to what they need to do, their next step, where they to go, and then create a way in which to tell them how to do it, how to take the right turn. So we’re kind of a digital, we’re sort of a spiritual G.P.S., and we use technology and services to do those two things, or those three things really, know, match, and tell customers on how to kind of take the next step.

Yeah, so most churches would say, we really want our people to attend, to serve, to give, to be in a small group, to be baptized. I mean, you know, and maybe there’s a couple more. So what you’re saying is, if a church understood exactly where all their people were in regards to those marks of ownership or membership or whatever you want to call it, engagement, then then we could help our people that are not filling in those what badges, they’re not marking those off so that we want to help drive them. Because it’s not that, hey, if you do all these things now, you’re a fully devoted follower. It’s just what you’re saying is, hey, if you’ve done all these things, chances are that you’re on the right path.

Yeah, exactly. And here’s the hard part, which I love, is one, I think most churches would say we’ve got a good feel for what that journey looks like, right, in aggregate. The problem is it’s not the same for everybody, so it’s not linear, right, not everybody enters in the same area. What might be great timing in life for a small group for me, for you, it might be serving, for somebody else, it might be giving of their resources, for others, learning to share their faith. But it’s this idea that, first of all, it’s not linear. And second, we’re not all at the same place. So the hard part isn’t knowing what the steps are, and we call them next steps or badges or whatever you want to do to indicate, hey, this is something that I hope you do. It’s not knowing what we want them to do, the Bible is pretty clear about what we want people to do, and the truth is, most churches are doing very similar things. The problem is when you look at it on an individual level, right, because Jason’s at a different place in his journey than Blue is, and Bob is, and Susan is. And so our goal was to say, one, yes, let’s map what the steps are. But more importantly, let’s look at it on an individual basis, let’s try to understand where every unique person is in the journey, let’s understand what’s uniquely the next step for them, and then let’s talk to them in the most relevant way we possibly can. I mean, if I could, and I tell people this, if you knew everybody and you could go out and have a cup of coffee and chat with them and do a hand-guided tour through that, do that, that’s better, right? It’s just figuring out how to do that at scale that gets really tricky.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you can’t really do that one-on-one unless you’re a really small church.

Right. Right.

So how are you doing that with most churches then, are you using their church management system to understand the data?

Yeah, totally. You need data, right? We need information. And it’s so funny because I’ve had to go out and I thought I could just start there like that was okay. I realized there are a lot of people that I actually have to start with saying, hey, using data, knowing your members, is not a sin. Like, it’s okay. Jesus actually knew things about people, and fortunately, we don’t have the same divine abilities to know everything, so we have to use data on it. So typically we use all kinds of first-party data, a lot of that comes out of the church management system, but churches have all kinds of information about people. Often they’ve done a spiritual gifts test, or a personality test, they can look at what they’re engaging in as far as when they’re watching online and what they’re watching. And we take all of that information and we just consolidate it, we aggregate it into one system so we can look at it, and then we can read in there and we can help churches understand where somebody is based on what they’re doing. So, yes, we use data first, and then we have some software that we built that helps you match and segment and kind of create audiences of people. Like, give me everybody who is 25 to 30 that’s been baptized, but isn’t in a small group yet, and now you can start bucketing and segmenting people. And then we’ve created a messaging platform to say, now that you know these people, what do you want to say to them? How do you want to encourage them to do that? And then we deliver that message out in the best channel that we can to those members.

Okay, so you’re really painting a good picture here because first of all, understanding where your people are, and then again, moving the needle to get them more Christlike in their walk in discipleship. How does that kind of a focused member engagement actually grow the church?

Yeah, I love that you say that. I think, first of all, it’s the greatest growth strategy and it works both in the church and in the marketplace. So I’m going to give you a marketplace dynamic which is unique, and I actually think this is funny, we talk about the church stealing marketplace principles, I think it was the other way around a long time ago. So the great example at Mercedes, is we had this down to a science, we knew that if we wanted to bring somebody into the brand, we would spend about $1200 in advertising for every new person that bought a Mercedes. Right? Now, if you own one of the cars and I invest in you, we’d invest about $300 in what we call customer engagement activities to turn you into literally what we called at the time, a brand evangelist. Right? So I wanted you to love the brand so much that you evangelize it. And if we did a good job, on average, a brand evangelist would bring four people into the product for us.

For 300 bucks?

Yep. For 300 bucks. We spent $1200 to get one guy and spend $300 and he brings four. It cost you 25% and it is a4x ROI. I think that same principle, it’s the Great Commission, make disciples and send them out, I’m not trying to sound too businessy but you’re making an army of salespeople.

That’s right.

So it’s better, it helps with growth because you’re going to get the volume of people. So you get, obviously, more, we’ll call people, out there talking about this. But there’s also been some studies lately that talk about seekers, and where they want to understand about faith. And it’s shifting from this idea of I’m going to go to a church professional to try to understand what’s happening, to I’d rather hear from somebody that I know and trust that lives out their faith. And so what you’re doing is you’re not only increasing the numbers, you’re increasing what I’m going to call the conversion rate, the effectiveness, because I trust Jason, he’s not in it for money, he’s not in it for something else; what he is, is he believes it, I see his walk, I witness it. So they’re more apt to talk to you and be inclined to listen from a layperson than they are even from a professional on stage.

So I think you get volume and you get effectiveness, you get better conversion, and then here’s the third part which we all try to do is, you actually get a much higher retention rate, right? If you’ve actually got people deep into your understanding of your product, and I ask and I prayed for grace on that because salvation I’m saying is the product. It’s the greatest product in the world, but I’m purposely pushing a little bit. But if you can get people into the product and understand it, then their stability, right, their retention goes way up. So you’ll see Kingdom growth, and I get more people out there talking to people, I get a higher conversion rate, and I get a lower attrition rate. All three of those grow not only your church, but the kingdom, it’s a trifecta for me.

Yeah. Okay, so this isn’t just theory, people, Blue put this into practice. So, Blue, talk to us about what you did at CCV. And I know it wasn’t just you, first of all, all glory to Jesus, he’s the one who made this happen. But he used you to make this happen. So talk to us a little bit about what was that like at CCV.

Yeah, a couple of things. And I mean this from the bottom of my heart, thank you for saying it first, I really do think there are three things that come into play with growth, one is Holy Spirit. If He doesn’t, none of us are that cool, if he doesn’t want to, we’re not growing.

That’s right.

The second is you have to have a really good product, meaning somebody who can preach, good worship, good programming, and it’s really hard to put lipstick on a pig, so you have to have a great product. But then the third thing is we had an aligned strategy. So this is the piece that I think, we talk about the technology we have, and we talk about some of the services, all of that is in supportive of and subservient to a strategy, and it’s a methodology. And one of the things I noticed when I came in from the marketplace is, I think there’s something and I call them the core four, right, I think that the entire organization needs to really understand the vision, the mission, and the values for sure, those are three, and I think churches do a great job of that. But the fourth is the strategy, how we’re going to do it. So when I started talking to churches, and particularly our church CCV, I thought we had a really good grasp on the vision, the mission, and the values, but nobody could articulate to me the strategy. This became our strategy, right, and it was sort of fitted on a single page, what’s the strategy? Take a not-yet Christian, walk them through a particular set of steps so that they spit out and they go out to their area of influence and they bring more people in, that’s how we’re going to grow people. Our vision at CCV was the win the valley for Christ, right? How we’re going to do it? The strategy is we’re going to take our existing members, make them disciples, turn it into an army of salespeople, send them out and get them to bring the church for us, there’s the strategy. So now we could measure things. We could target things. So, yes, what I believe was the effectiveness was a really good vision, right, we had a really good product, and then we were able to align not just our staff but our lay leaders, our entire congregation, everybody that was involved in this was aligned along the same strategy.

Wow. Wow. So you had a lot of synergy. Because CCV has grown tremendously over the years. But because the strategy kind of came into focus, it really saw some serious growth. I know that because I live in the valley as well, we’re here in the Phoenix area, and CCV is one of the fastest growing churches and it’s multiplying disciples all over the place. So this thing has really worked.

Yeah.

And that makes a lot of sense, I think for most churches, that’s a question. You probably know your vision, well you probably don’t have it memorized, but you can find your vision statement, your mission statement, and your core values.

Yep.

Go ask your lead pastor, “What’s the strategy?”.

Yeah, go ask anybody, go ask your leader.

And ask the other people, and see if you get the same answer.

Yeah, right. I love that because I used to say, listen, if there is fog at the top, it’s pure darkness, one layer below.

Right?

So it’s got to be crisp and clear. And I’ll tell you, one of the things we did, which was very tactical and I loved, is even our new hire orientation. In the first hour, they would hear from our senior pastor and he would go in and he would talk about the vision and the culture. Right? And then the very next hour, they’d hear from an executive pastor and we talk about the strategy and the mission statement. Right? So that the first thing they got in the first 2 hours of joining the staff was the vision and the culture, and the mission and the strategy. I think it’s critical to get that alignment. We actually took this strategy and obviously presented it to staff, presented it to elders, and presented it out to the group leaders, just kind of key stakeholders, and then our senior pastor actually presented it to the congregation. No secret, folks, this is the strategy, right? This is important that you show up here, we have to gather as a community of like-minded believers. But this, coming in for an hour on Saturday or Sunday, whichever services you run, that is not the strategy for growth. Our strategy for growth is that you go out and bring people to Christ, not us. We’re here to resource you. And I have this super cheesy word picture, it’s a cheesy, cheesy analogy, but rather than building a bigger 747 and just trying to get more and more people to come on the flight, what we said was our job is to resource people to be their own pilots. So we want to be like a supertanker that’s going to fuel them and charge them and resource them and send them out to fly the jet and, you know, fly their own planes.

And we’re all going this way, right?

Yeah. Again, I overuse, I use these analogies and stories. I love, and I’m kind of a bit of a World War II buff, and so when I was reading up about the success of Normandy and I’m landing this on this alignment, it it wasn’t that it was the single best beach for the attack, in fact, there was a lot of options, and so the Germans had to spread out their defenses to protect it. The key was, they aligned everybody on the same beach, they had hundreds of thousands of men and ships and airplanes and everything else, all targeting the same. And then the beauty of that, is people can skipper their own boat, right? If they know what the goal is, they know what the objective is, and they know what the destination is, then they can make decisions without having to ripple all the way back up. So that’s what it did for us, we armed our 400-plus staff to be able to go out and make disciples because that was our strategy.

Wow. Okay, we could talk for hours on this stuff, I love this stuff, Blue, it’s fantastic. Let’s talk a little bit about Studio C, and how you guys are helping churches. I know we talked strategy, but get down into the details a little bit.

Yeah, absolutely. So really from part of it, the first thing we do is make sure that everybody believes in this methodology. I can’t say this enough, that what we do was built and is subservient to the methodology. So I always say, like, here’s a couple of litmus churches need to ask. Do you want to grow? And I hope the answer is yes for everybody, in that, because if you grow, we grow the kingdom, right? Do you want to grow? Do you believe in this idea of engaging your members as a pathway to growth? Which, I’m going to argue really is we put some cute PowerPoints and technology to the Great Commission, so do you believe in this idea of making disciples and sending them out as part of our growth engine? And then, do you believe that to engage people, you need to know them and you need to do it in the most personalized way you possibly can? And if you can answer yes to all three of those, that’s where Studio C kicks in.

So what we technically do when we come in is we’ll help map what that discipleship journey looks like, and call that almost a strategy component to say, what are the steps? If you could wave a magic wand, what are the things you’d love your members to do? And once you do that, then we start mapping over your data, and we create a data warehouse for every church. Every church gets all their data from whatever source, church management system, gifts tests, curriculum, content providers, and we put all that together and then we give you a system to start segmenting those audiences. Who do I want to talk to? We’re going to talk to people about getting into groups, serving, giving, and birthdays. And then we have a system that allows you to take this message you’ve made, right, an encouragement to get in and send that out to either your mobile app, to a website, to an email, to text message, whatever the right channel might be, and the beauty behind that is nobody has to their tech stack. Right? Our goal is you don’t have to start over, you don’t have to get a new church management system, you don’t have to get a new mobile provider, our goal is to come in the middle, see what you’re working with, and figure out how to take the data and help you present that out in the best light to your members.

Okay. All right. Wow. And then so from there, I mean, then you’re working the plan, right? A great strategy is a great strategy until it gets implemented, right, and then once it’s implemented, that’s where you see growth.

Well, what’s great about it is, you’re also getting insight now to know what lever to pull. What I used to always say is I’m not sure if…Like I used to ask our staff all the time, are we doing a good job? Do we know? And if so, how are we measuring it? And so we would set goals at the beginning of the year really around even engagement. we think we’ve fallen off on serving, or we’ve got some lower numbers with where we are with regards to inviting people to church, so now we can lean into this. And I used to always challenge my staff with this idea of if you knew, what would you do, right? So let me help you know, and then you can figure out how to minister to them better in a more targeted way. So it is, it’s about running the play and then measuring it, running the play and measuring effectiveness, and are we moving it? And we found that you can be so effective, we actually over pulled on one lever and maybe didn’t pull hard enough on another. In our very, very first year, we are going to focus on baptism numbers. I’m being so transparent, I’m probably getting myself in trouble here, but I needed a couple of quick wins. Our senior pastor at the time is, he’s such an evangelist that he jokingly would say, like, I just want to baptize people after that, I really don’t care. And I used to have to say to him that, hey, this strategy, this idea, is going to help us baptize more people. So in the first year, I really needed to grow some baptism numbers, right? So we targeted messages really around people who’d been going to church for longer than a year, they were already involved in two or three different ministries but weren’t baptized by immersion yet. I target some of our former Catholics that hadn’t done a Christian baptism at that stage, and we just sent targeted messages to them, very specific to who they are and what they’re going through, and grew baptisms by 40% in our first year.

Wow.

Right? So that was this idea that now I got some wins. We pulled pretty heavy on the lever called baptism, and then the next year we can adjust it a little bit and we can pull…So after running this play for five plus years, we learned pretty well at the beginning of the year is, where are we going to pull, what levers are we going to lean into a little bit, and then we just target those.

Yeah. Wow. Okay. I have so many more questions, but we’re running out of time. How do people get a hold of you if they want to learn more about Studio C, and connect with Blue? How do they do that?

Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. So we have a team, obviously, you can reach out to anybody on the team. But if they want to contact me directly, I’m way open for that, so it’s just blue@the studioc.org. So blue@thestudioc.org. You can email me, or you can call me on my cell phone number, I post that out on our website as well, so my cell is on there if they want to contact me. Otherwise, our website really is the best way to get information about what I’m talking about, and then there’s a nice little form on there to reach out and connect with us. So that’s thestudioc.org, which is the easiest way to get in, but lots of team members. One of the things that I was really, really fortunate about is there’s this unique group of people who have these skill sets they learned in the marketplace, but they want to deploy them in the service of the kingdom. And I jokingly would say, let’s be honest, when I joined the church, I barely stepped over the fence from market to ministry, I wasn’t up on the stage producing sermons and writing. Well, I’ve barely stepped back over, we only serve churches right now, but I’ve got a group of people that have experience from agency life, they worked in the marketplace, in agencies, they’ve come from that. Somebody who has been doing marketing and communications for some megachurches for the last 15 years runs our services team. So we’ve got a robust, and depending on what you need, you’ll either meet with me or we’ll connect you with one of them, and would love to have a conversation.

Yeah. Well, I’ll end it with this, a lot of, you know, what we do at Missional Marketing, we are sort of top of the funnel, so to speak. We love to drive traffic to your website to get engagement, we want to create leads, and we want to create more momentum for the church. But this tool is an amazing tool because it really, that’s the next layer of getting more engagement from your people. And so I’m constantly sharing with churches The Studio C method, and Blue’s passion behind all that, and it’s worth checking it out. You want to take a minute, you want to go investigate it, go Google it, and then connect with Blue. I’ll tell you, it’ll produce good fruit for your church.

Well, thank you, Jason. I don’t mean to pile on too much on this, but that’s what I love about working with you, too, it’s the synergy of the entire life cycle. I’m focused on engagement because it’s my passion and I believe in it, but it doesn’t work in isolation, you actually still need to talk to people, right? That’s what I’m saying, especially based on the lifestyle of the church. If you’re very young, you probably need to invest a little bit heavier on even what I’ll call upper funnel initiatives versus engagement. But it’s the synergy between those two, and the handoff, and the knowing. At the end of the day, we’re trying to help somebody go from anonymous, I don’t know you and you don’t know me, to known, and build a rapport and serve them in the most targeted way we possibly can. So what you guys are doing is awesome, we share a life philosophy, I think, in that. And I really appreciate all that you’ve been doing and working with you, you guys are terrific at it.

Thanks, Blue, take care.

All right, I appreciate you.

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